Digital BW, The Print

Does anyone here in the group have any experience printing black ink 
position only. I have been experimenting with this and was wondering 
if members of the forum could comment on any experiences that they 
might have had.  So far i have found that I prefer, believe it or 
not, using the Epson Black Cart with a 1270 printer.  I seem to get 
better blacks and grey tones from this cartridge. Any comments on 
inks and papers would be most apprecaited.

Rick Zeidman
www.morgan-baily.com

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "morganbaily2000" 
<rickz1@a...> wrote:
> Does anyone here in the group have any experience printing black 
ink 
> position only. I have been experimenting with this and was 
wondering 
> if members of the forum could comment on any experiences that they 
> might have had.  So far i have found that I prefer, believe it or 
> not, using the Epson Black Cart with a 1270 printer.  I seem to get 
> better blacks and grey tones from this cartridge. Any comments on 
> inks and papers would be most apprecaited.
> 
> Rick Zeidman
> www.morgan-baily.com


I was just recently given this link:

http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Part 3 gets into black-only printing, and the interview with Nicholas 
Hartman also deals with this subject.

Mike

Clayton Jones series of articles @
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm is very good. Clayton goes into a
lot of detail, possibly more than you need to start. 

I too am personally a fan of BO printing. I don't use it all the time,
but some images just look better that way. No need to be apologetic
about BO.

The Epson Black is a good ink. Only drawbacks are cost and the fact
that it will eventually fade being a dye ink. Epson Heavy Weight Matte
and Enhanced Matte are both very good papers. The EEM cost about 15%
more than HWM and seems about 15% better to my eye. Either will do you
well.

The key is to print what looks good to your eye, not what the rest of
the world is doing. 

Bob Michaels 

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"morganbaily2000" <rickz1@a...> wrote:

> Does anyone here in the group have any experience printing black ink 
> position only. I have been experimenting with this and was wondering 
> if members of the forum could comment on any experiences that they 
> might have had.  So far i have found that I prefer, believe it or 
> not, using the Epson Black Cart with a 1270 printer.  I seem to get 
> better blacks and grey tones from this cartridge. Any comments on 
> inks and papers would be most apprecaited.
> 
> Rick Zeidman
> www.morgan-baily.com

With all this discussion of current printing techniques, printer
options, inks, etc., I feel obligated to bring up that I have seen
metamerism in Black Only prints I have made in the past, using Epson
black ink in my 1280.  I reported it here almost a year ago, and some
others mentioned they had seen it also.  To me, sometimes it takes on a
kind of greenish cast in daylight.  I think even Clayton has seen this
and that's why he uses an MIS black ink.  I have not seen that in my
hextone prints using MIS VM.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

I can see a little metamerism print with my 2200 too. I think that my 
printer will use all Inks when i set Black Mode in the printer 
settings Dialog and printing grayscale picture on 1440 dpi. Also i 
can't see really a difference in dot structure between printing in 
Black or in Color mode.


Stefan Voigt

At 09:03 PM 10/23/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Does anyone here in the group have any experience printing black ink
>position only. I have been experimenting with this and was wondering
>if members of the forum could comment on any experiences that they
>might have had.  So far i have found that I prefer, believe it or
>not, using the Epson Black Cart with a 1270 printer.  I seem to get
>better blacks and grey tones from this cartridge. Any comments on
>inks and papers would be most apprecaited.
>
>Rick Zeidman
>www.morgan-baily.com
>
>

Rick,

You need to go here:

http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton Jones is the man!

Black only can look very good at a certain size with a certain image on 
certain papers.

AZ

Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

For: Stefan Voigt

> Also i can't see really a difference in dot structure between printing 
> in Black or in Color mode.

Many people, including myself, consider that printing in black only 
mode is unsatisfactory because it produces prints in which dots are 
visible to the naked eye in the highlights and, also, tonal transitions 
are much harsher than with printing either with quad inks or with the 7 
UC inks (6 inks with ImagePrint which doesn't use yellow).

--Mitch/Bangkok

I've used black only--- the advantage being approximately neutral blacks without 
deep thought.

Also blacks without meaningful density (unless fading dyes are used, 1280 etc).  Just 
compare one to a silver gelatin darkroom print (well made of course).

Even an Epson 2200 using matte black alone is poor in comparison, however using 
ALL inks it can be great.

Bill

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alan Zinn <AZinn@n...> 
wrote:

> At 09:03 PM 10/23/03 +0000, you wrote:
> >Does anyone here in the group have any experience printing black ink
> >position only. I have been experimenting with this and was wondering
> >if members of the forum could comment on any experiences that they
> >might have had.  So far i have found that I prefer, believe it or
> >not, using the Epson Black Cart with a 1270 printer.  I seem to get
> >better blacks and grey tones from this cartridge. Any comments on
> >inks and papers would be most apprecaited.
> >
> >Rick Zeidman
> >www.morgan-baily.com
> >
> >
> 
> Rick,
> 
> You need to go here:
> 
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
> Clayton Jones is the man!
> 
> Black only can look very good at a certain size with a certain image on 
> certain papers.
> 
> AZ
> 
> Build a Lookaround!
> The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
> NOW SHIPPING
> http://www.panoramacamera.us

Hello Bill,

>Also blacks without meaningful density 

To the contrary, because the blacks are rendered with 100% black ink
and not a mixture of black and gray (as _some_ methods do), the BO
blacks are the most dense available, equal to any other method that
uses 100% black ink for the blacks (when you have a solid mass of
black ink there are no dots to be seen, so it is no different than any
full-ink method at that point).  The most common remark I get in
response to my sample BO prints is "Wow! What stunning blacks".

(I'm not comparing to silver prints, just responding to BO vs other
digital printing methods using the same ink)

At the same time, one of the most common errors that people make which
prevents them from getting good blacks (whatever the printing method),
is that the blacks in the image are not truly black.  Often what
appears black on the screen is often RGB 3 or 4, instead of zero.  So
it pays to check these areas with the densitometer in PS.  I've had a
lot of feedback from people who reported finally getting good blacks
after bringing those areas down to RGB 0.

One cannot get good prints with _any_ technique when working "without
thought".  BO is no different.  Assuming good results are desired,
printing with the BO method does not allow one to work without
thought.


>Even an Epson 2200 using matte black alone is poor in 
>comparison, however using ALL inks it can be great.

I have a 2200 as well as my trusty 870, and I find that its BO results
are as good as the 870 (better in some ways because at 2880 the dither
banding is eliminated and minute details are sharper).  If the Matte
Black blacks are unsatisfactory, it's because it is a warm color ink,
not because it's a BO print.  Again, BO blacks are equal to or better
than what other methods produce, given the same ink.


>Just  compare one to a silver gelatin darkroom print (well made 
>of course).

If you are comparing pigment inks to silver prints and want to use
disparaging remarks, fine.  But don't use that as an excuse to dump on
the BO technique.  It's blacks are surpassed by none.  You can't get
any blacker than 100% coverage with 100% black ink.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

At 04:58 +0000 25.10.2003, Clayton Jones wrote:
*******************************************

>But don't use that as an excuse to dump on
>the BO technique.  It's blacks are surpassed by none.  You can't get
>any blacker than 100% coverage with 100% black ink.
>
>Regards,
>Clayton

I apologize, but I don't ahree with you. Not by my personal 
experience but because of simple mathematics:

The best inkjet for giclee - IRIS and its clones - produces as large 
as 96 pl dots (firing all 36 possible 3 pl drops in one place). 
2200/2100 has largest drop only 22 pl - about 4,5 times less. Simple 
if you use only BO 100 % black ink only and if you use 100 of all 
black inks of quadtone system you should receive black with higher 
density in second case. Any black pigment one may use is not 100 % 
black (only black hole does it) --> more black pigment = more black.

Amount of ink from OB drop: 22 pl
amount of ink of 75 % black ink: 22*0.75 = black as 16,5 pl of 100 % black ink
amount of ink of 50 % black ink: 22*0.50 = black as 11 pl of 100 % black ink
amount of ink of 75 % black ink: 22*0.25 = black as 5,5 pl of 100 % black ink

22+16,5+11+5,5 = 55 pl of black as 100 % black ink >>> 22 pl

There are physical reasons (capacity of coating) you may not achieve 
the 400 % of inks usually.

Martin Sluka
--

> From: Martin Sluka [mailto:martinsluka@...]
>
> The best inkjet for giclee - IRIS and its clones - produces as large
> as 96 pl dots (firing all 36 possible 3 pl drops in one place).
> 2200/2100 has largest drop only 22 pl - about 4,5 times less. Simple
> if you use only BO 100 % black ink only and if you use 100 of all
> black inks of quadtone system you should receive black with higher
> density in second case. Any black pigment one may use is not 100 %
> black (only black hole does it) --> more black pigment = more black.

But what's the dot resolution of the IRIS? Does it put 96pl of black ink on
1440x2880 dots in a square inch? That would be 32ml of ink to cover an 8x10
image. Something tells me they put out 96pl of ink because they have
somewhat lower resolution. If they're, say, 720x1440, then that would be
roughly equivalent to 22pl drops at 1440x2880.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:

Hello Clinton

In a recent post of yours you wrote:

....
> 
> I have a 2200 as well as my trusty 870, and I find that its BO results
> are as good as the 870 (better in some ways because at 2880 the dither
> banding is eliminated and minute details are sharper).  If the Matte
> Black blacks are unsatisfactory, it's because it is a warm color ink,
> not because it's a BO print.  Again, BO blacks are equal to or better
> than what other methods produce, given the same ink.
>.... 

> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm


I had a 870, too (and still have a 1160) and for almost a year now a
2100 (=2200?) I use for colour and BO printing at 2880 with OEM inks
(street photography and available light photography being my subject.
That's why I like that "TRI-X feeling" best rendered by BO technique).
By the way "Photokit Sharpener" helps me a
great deal to bring out "minute details sharper" as you put it ...

Questions:

a) BO Printing with the 2100 results in warm prints - in my case on
EAM/EEM. Not unpleasant to my eye. But I think it is a fact that ink
and paper interact. Is there
any ink - paper combo (preferably from the EPSON or HAHNEMUEHLE range)
that
results in more neutral prints???

b) Could you please add your BO findings with the 2100 OEM matte black
inks to your "Analysis of Technical Print Exchange". 

Thanks a lot

Chatzebussi

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Martin Sluka 
<martinsluka@m...> wrote:
> At 04:58 +0000 25.10.2003, Clayton Jones wrote:
> *******************************************
> 
> >But don't use that as an excuse to dump on
> >the BO technique.  It's blacks are surpassed by none.  You can't get
> >any blacker than 100% coverage with 100% black ink.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Clayton
> 
> I apologize, but I don't ahree with you. Not by my personal 
> experience but because of simple mathematics:
> 
> The best inkjet for giclee - IRIS and its clones - produces as large 
> as 96 pl dots (firing all 36 possible 3 pl drops in one place). 
> 2200/2100 has largest drop only 22 pl - about 4,5 times less. Simple 
> if you use only BO 100 % black ink only and if you use 100 of all 
> black inks of quadtone system you should receive black with higher 
> density in second case. Any black pigment one may use is not 100 % 
> black (only black hole does it) --> more black pigment = more black.
> 
> Amount of ink from OB drop: 22 pl
> amount of ink of 75 % black ink: 22*0.75 = black as 16,5 pl of 100 % black ink
> amount of ink of 50 % black ink: 22*0.50 = black as 11 pl of 100 % black ink
> amount of ink of 75 % black ink: 22*0.25 = black as 5,5 pl of 100 % black ink
> 
> 22+16,5+11+5,5 = 55 pl of black as 100 % black ink >>> 22 pl
> 
> There are physical reasons (capacity of coating) you may not achieve 
> the 400 % of inks usually.
> 
> Martin Sluka
> --

The Epson printers are capable of printing the maximum volume of ink
that paper can handle using just one ink.  So like Clayton said the best
dMax is achieved using just the black ink -- otherwise you'd have to
reduce the black ink in order to add any of the others.

From personal experience, the Epson driver achieves the darkest dMax
when used in the black-only mode.  With other drivers/RIPs its may be
possible to achieve this in other modes.

Roy

At 00:56 -0700 25.10.2003, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
*******************************************

>  > From: Martin Sluka [mailto:martinsluka@...]
>>
>>  The best inkjet for giclee - IRIS and its clones - produces as large
>>  as 96 pl dots (firing all 36 possible 3 pl drops in one place).
>>  2200/2100 has largest drop only 22 pl - about 4,5 times less. Simple
>>  if you use only BO 100 % black ink only and if you use 100 of all
>>  black inks of quadtone system you should receive black with higher
>>  density in second case. Any black pigment one may use is not 100 %
>>  black (only black hole does it) --> more black pigment = more black.
>
>But what's the dot resolution of the IRIS? Does it put 96pl of black ink on
>1440x2880 dots in a square inch? That would be 32ml of ink to cover an 8x10
>image. Something tells me they put out 96pl of ink because they have
>somewhat lower resolution. If they're, say, 720x1440, then that would be
>roughly equivalent to 22pl drops at 1440x2880.

You are right, IRIS uses 300 dpi and 33 levels (x 3pl) of dot size. 
The Epsons 22 pl and 1440x1440 dpi is enough to compare with.

But all this discussion is about feeling, not about calculations. :/

Martin

--

Hi Clayton,

Interesting comments and probably true as far as you go,

but

the telling comment is that you are not comparing the BO prints to real blacks, i.e. a 
dense silver print.  As you say if the BO blacks are not black it is because the ink in 
warm not black.  Very true, but not satisfying to someone who is discerning about 
black quality.

Also, you can get a much better black using RGB rather than BO, once again because 
the black ink is not really black and can be improved.

Paper surface makes a BIG diff.  Ep Velvet works great, and other fine matte art paper 
which I admire don't do so well.

Bill

Hi Clayton, 

Sorry, when I just made the previous reply, I had missed the last paragraph of your 
note.

So I would like to add, "Baloney". 

You certainly can get blacker than 100% WARM black ink.

and BO has a more limited tonal range too.

Bill

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> 
wrote:

> Hello Bill,
> 
> >Also blacks without meaningful density 
> 
> To the contrary, because the blacks are rendered with 100% black ink
> and not a mixture of black and gray (as _some_ methods do), the BO
>> than what other methods produce, given the same ink.
> 
> 
> >Just  compare one to a silver gelatin darkroom print (well made 
> >of course).
> 
> If you are comparing pigment inks to silver prints and want to use
> disparaging remarks, fine.  But don't use that as an excuse to dump on
> the BO technique.  It's blacks are surpassed by none.  You can't get
> any blacker than 100% coverage with 100% black ink.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Bill wrote:
> Hi Clayton,
>
> Sorry, when I just made the previous reply, I had missed the last
> paragraph of your note.
>
> So I would like to add, "Baloney".
>
> You certainly can get blacker than 100% WARM black ink.
>
> and BO has a more limited tonal range too.

Hi Bill. Have you see one of Clayton's prints printed with MIS-VM
black-only on Photo Rag? I have, and that's why I ask.

Peter Marquis-Kyle
www.marquis-kyle.com.au

Nope.  Don't suppose he would send me one???  I have no experience with the MIS-
VM.  Have seen great B&W prints from MIS gray scale (don't know which version).

But as good as they looked, the blacks weren't really black compared to a cold tone 
darkroom print.   I would imagine that to most people it might not matter a whole lot, 
but some of us do images where the black is a major part of the image (low key?) and 
I want it to "glow", glow black of course, sort of like hard coal.

1280 dye inks will do this fairly well, but can fade in (2) weeks in some exhibition 
situations.  And now I am convinced that 2200 with Ultrachromes will do it too, under 
SPECIAL conditions.  The first tests I saw were black only on matte fine art done by a 
major printing expert? dealer and were definitely not satisfactory.  He could also 
make RGB B&W with a color cast.

I lucked out in two senses:

1.  found a real Epson tech expert (referral, not by calling in) who told me that it was 
possible, but not using black only.

2.  a friend who was desparate bought a 2200  in spite of the dealer demo and 
experimented a lot.  The solution (using RGB) was to abandon the familar matte 
watercolor papers and use Epson Velvet.  We had tended to avoid Epson papers for 
historical reasons (permanence, surface, etc).  Incidently, when doing this if the print 
is a bit magenta or green etc, it means the printer profile is not good enough.  B&W is 
a great way to stress a printer profile cuz any color really shows.

Hence I expect to buy either a 2200 or a 7600.

After saying all this, I admit that I have wondered if I am being too nitpicky since if I 
don't compare MIS or BO blacks to a darkroom print, the inkjet prints look pretty 
good.  I do love darkroom quality though, and have been hoping that Epson could 
match it or nearly so.

Bill

> 
> Hi Bill. Have you see one of Clayton's prints printed with MIS-VM
> black-only on Photo Rag? I have, and that's why I ask.
> 
> Peter Marquis-Kyle
> www.marquis-kyle.com.au

Bill wrote:
> Nope.  Don't suppose he would send me one??? 

You might be in luck! 

See http://www.cjcom.net/prnord.htm

Peter Marquis-Kyle