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QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?

QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?

2003-11-12 by Ernst Dinkla

The QTR/Linux printing from commandline is a bit too primitive
for me. For the moment I'm back to the Wasatch SoftRip for quad
printing. I made new CMYK correction curves in the RIP and made
the best of the 4 channel, very much colour printing (auto black
generation etc) architecture of that RIP. At least it makes
linearising with the Spectrocam possible. Though for the coolest
curve I need the toner channel in non linear fashion. Then it is
cooler than Paul's curve and cool into the black. The Eboni black
in all the 4 curves is at least 1.85 on PhotoRag, checked it with
a densitometer and Kodak's reflection guide as a reference. Is
that a number that QTR users also get ?  I have to add that at 60
% of the greyscale the ink quantity is then a bit too much, just
before the black sets in. A detail greystrip with white lines
through the steps shows some bleeding there. The neutral curve is
showing it most. The dithering of the Wasatch isn't as good as
Epson's or Gimp-print.

After this exercise my esteem for Paul is even higher than it
was. How on earth can you think in grey inks controlled by an
RGB/CMYK colour driver like Epson with its hidden inklimits and
black generation and do the steering by shifting RGB curves ?  On
the other hand I also think that the Ultratone VM set is very
much compatible to that method and could have more suitable mixes
for other methods like QTR or another RIP. The toner set for
instance could be stronger with more blue pigment to keep the
total ink quantity lower. If that is possible.

I have printed some geometric art samples that have a more or
less random distribution of 205 greys in squares. If the
greyscale isn't linearised properly it shows in those samples
right away. Could put a strip of that in the files section for
others to use it. If the artist agrees.

The best that could happen now to QTR on Linux is that the
Gimp-print plugin of the Gimp functions with QTR. Even better
would be a 16 bit dedicated Greyscale viewer with a similar
driver menu and a display that shows the toned image based on the
0-100 % tone scale setting.

Ernst

RE: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?

2003-11-12 by Paul Roark

Ernst,

>... I'm back to the Wasatch SoftRip for quad printing. ...
>The Eboni black in all the 4 curves is at least 1.85
>on PhotoRag, ...

Wow, maybe I ought to look into this RIP.  That's a fantastic dmax for matte
paper.

>...The dithering of the Wasatch isn't as good as
>Epson's or Gimp-print.

>...How on earth can you think in grey inks controlled by an
>RGB/CMYK colour driver like Epson with its hidden inklimits and
>black generation and do the steering by shifting RGB curves?

A warped mind comes in handy occasionally.

> The toner set could be stronger ...

That's what UT2 is probably going to be, or include with other changes.
It's more than just the saturation of the paper.  With a hextone printer I
can adjust the tones better, and some RC papers turn very warm in the
shadows. The toner may also get much more gray ink in it.  When I don't have
to worry about old quads, the need shifts from hiding the dots to other
issues.  The current UT ink densities were really just a result of history
and the need to be relatively compatible with the vm inkset.  So, a UT2 is
on the "to do" list.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?

2003-11-12 by Jeff Magidson

Wow.. The RIP is only $995 - $3,000 !  :)

-Jeff
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Ernst,
>
>> ... I'm back to the Wasatch SoftRip for quad printing. ...
>> The Eboni black in all the 4 curves is at least 1.85
>> on PhotoRag, ...
>
> Wow, maybe I ought to look into this RIP.  That's a fantastic dmax for 
> matte
> paper.

Re: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?

2003-11-12 by Ernst Dinkla

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Jeff Magidson" <jef.jef@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?


>
> Wow.. The RIP is only $995 - $3,000 !  :)
>
> -Jeff

And I would not advise someone to buy it for this kind of work. I
bought it for other reasons some years back and later on the
upgrade to 4.5. It would have been wiser if I had purchased the
Ergosoft Rip three years ago. Against my intuition I bought the
Wasatch then on an advice of another user. Wasatch isn't
interested in extending the RIP with some quad specific features
when I asked them. Ergosoft did so with Studioprint. I also get
the impression that Ergosoft is interested in getting better
dithering quality when I read that there are printer specific
dithering algorithms in that driver.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?

2003-11-13 by Ernst Dinkla

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:14 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?


> >... I'm back to the Wasatch SoftRip for quad printing. ...
> >The Eboni black in all the 4 curves is at least 1.85
> >on PhotoRag, ...
>
> Wow, maybe I ought to look into this RIP.  That's a fantastic
dmax for matte
> paper.

Well, I'm not so sure anymore about that number and not sure
about any number anymore.

I didn't trust the densitometer that much so I used the Kodak
Reflectence Density Guide next to it. Both readings were almost
identical with the old Gretag D142-3, the 2.00 patch of the Kodak
and the black printed. Kodak doesn't give a guarantee that it is
exactly 2.00 D. This morning I measured the same patches with the
Spectrocam and get much more difference between the two readings.
The densitometer is very much influenced by the gloss versus
matte readings, matte readings end up too high, that even shows
up on two different Kodak reflection guides where one is more
matte but should be 0.5 lower in density and ends up higher.
Could be that this meter needs a polariser and then can be
calibrated correctly. I actually don't trust the Spectrocam
either when it has to read into 1.8 to 2.0 territory. Stays about
0.07 to 0.1 below what it should be. 1.65 to 1.68 D status T are
the readings.  This also means that the linearisation with the
Spectrocam into the darkest samples can't be correct. Not that
much of a problem as it should make the steps wider in that area
if the Wasatch isn't compensating the SpectroCam readings.

With the Spectrocam a Generations 4 (black ink only) printed with
the Wasatch RIP is reading slightly higher than the Eboni black
(cool curve), the Gretag gives a much higher reading for the
Eboni black sample made with the cool curve. Both matte samples
on the same paper. To the eye the blacks are indentical in
density but Generations a tiny bit cooler. Outdoors, tungsten
halogeen and 5500 K light. Jerry Olson was right to use
Generations at that time, did he use the PressReady RIP then to
get beyond the Epson driver black ink limit ?

The only thing I trust now is my eye looking through the Kodak
guide punches on the sample and shifting the light falling on the
samples from reflection to diffuse. The black is near 1.8 D.

The subject had a question mark and I'm still wondering what QTR
should deliver in Dmax to get some reference. Especially the
"grey boost" to the black should give something similar in
density or even better.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?

2003-11-13 by Carl Schofield

Ernst,

With the 2200, the Dmax for H Photo Rag was 1.63 - 1.64, using QTR 
beta8  and Epson UC inks (matte black).  EEM gives Dmax 1.68 - 1.70.  
These Dmax readings are from the 100% black patch in the 21 step gray 
wedges used for linearization with the Eye-One spectrophotometer.

Carl Schofield
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 06:15  AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:14 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?
>
>
>>> ... I'm back to the Wasatch SoftRip for quad printing. ...
>>> The Eboni black in all the 4 curves is at least 1.85
>>> on PhotoRag, ...
>>
>> Wow, maybe I ought to look into this RIP.  That's a fantastic
> dmax for matte
>> paper.
>
> Well, I'm not so sure anymore about that number and not sure
> about any number anymore.
>
> I didn't trust the densitometer that much so I used the Kodak
> Reflectence Density Guide next to it. Both readings were almost
> identical with the old Gretag D142-3, the 2.00 patch of the Kodak
> and the black printed. Kodak doesn't give a guarantee that it is
> exactly 2.00 D. This morning I measured the same patches with the
> Spectrocam and get much more difference between the two readings.
> The densitometer is very much influenced by the gloss versus
> matte readings, matte readings end up too high, that even shows
> up on two different Kodak reflection guides where one is more
> matte but should be 0.5 lower in density and ends up higher.
> Could be that this meter needs a polariser and then can be
> calibrated correctly. I actually don't trust the Spectrocam
> either when it has to read into 1.8 to 2.0 territory. Stays about
> 0.07 to 0.1 below what it should be. 1.65 to 1.68 D status T are
> the readings.  This also means that the linearisation with the
> Spectrocam into the darkest samples can't be correct. Not that
> much of a problem as it should make the steps wider in that area
> if the Wasatch isn't compensating the SpectroCam readings.
>
> With the Spectrocam a Generations 4 (black ink only) printed with
> the Wasatch RIP is reading slightly higher than the Eboni black
> (cool curve), the Gretag gives a much higher reading for the
> Eboni black sample made with the cool curve. Both matte samples
> on the same paper. To the eye the blacks are indentical in
> density but Generations a tiny bit cooler. Outdoors, tungsten
> halogeen and 5500 K light. Jerry Olson was right to use
> Generations at that time, did he use the PressReady RIP then to
> get beyond the Epson driver black ink limit ?
>
> The only thing I trust now is my eye looking through the Kodak
> guide punches on the sample and shifting the light falling on the
> samples from reflection to diffuse. The black is near 1.8 D.
>
> The subject had a question mark and I'm still wondering what QTR
> should deliver in Dmax to get some reference. Especially the
> "grey boost" to the black should give something similar in
> density or even better.
>
> Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?

2003-11-14 by Ernst Dinkla

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Carl Schofield" <scho@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?


> Ernst,
>
> With the 2200, the Dmax for H Photo Rag was 1.63 - 1.64, using
QTR
> beta8  and Epson UC inks (matte black).  EEM gives Dmax 1.68 -
1.70.
> These Dmax readings are from the 100% black patch in the 21
step gray
> wedges used for linearization with the Eye-One
spectrophotometer.
>
> Carl Schofield

Carl,

Did you use the "grey boost" or whatever it is called in QTR that
brings in a peak of dark grey ink into the Black at 100% ?

I'm using the Wasatch SoftRip free from any default paper setting
for this quad printing. For QTR the recommendation is to use the
matte paper setting of Gimp-print. I wonder whether that
restricts the ink amount already. That shouldn't be necessary as
the quad (Hexa) ink use is very different from the way CcMmYK
printing is done.

With Robert Morrison I am quite sceptic now of spectrometer
readings of the darkest samples in greywedges. He has written
some messages on the subject in March. But I also think that
densitometers have to be checked for matte and gloss readings. It
will depend on the angle of light in the measure head and
possibly in the use on polarisation filters in the measure head.
Similar problems are known in measuring textile colours and with
the "velvet" matte results we get that analogy isn't so far
fetched. In general I think the blacks we get are higher in Dmax
than the spectrometers tell us but not as high as some
densitometers tell us. A friend has an Eye One where I can
compare my samples.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?

2003-11-14 by Carl Schofield

Ernst,

I used BOOST_K=90 for the profiles mentioned.  The Eye-One yields dmax  
readings in excess of 2.0 for the glossy papers I've worked with and  
the matte paper dmax values are generally in line with values that have  
been reported by others using the x-rite and other densitometers.  I  
haven't tried paper settings other than "matte" for the matte papers,  
but your point about restricting ink is worth investigating.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Friday, November 14, 2003, at 03:52  AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Schofield" <scho@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 5:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR Ultratone Dmax on PhotoRag ?
>
>
>> Ernst,
>>
>> With the 2200, the Dmax for H Photo Rag was 1.63 - 1.64, using
> QTR
>> beta8  and Epson UC inks (matte black).  EEM gives Dmax 1.68 -
> 1.70.
>> These Dmax readings are from the 100% black patch in the 21
> step gray
>> wedges used for linearization with the Eye-One
> spectrophotometer.
>>
>> Carl Schofield
>
> Carl,
>
> Did you use the "grey boost" or whatever it is called in QTR that
> brings in a peak of dark grey ink into the Black at 100% ?
>
> I'm using the Wasatch SoftRip free from any default paper setting
> for this quad printing. For QTR the recommendation is to use the
> matte paper setting of Gimp-print. I wonder whether that
> restricts the ink amount already. That shouldn't be necessary as
> the quad (Hexa) ink use is very different from the way CcMmYK
> printing is done.
>
> With Robert Morrison I am quite sceptic now of spectrometer
> readings of the darkest samples in greywedges. He has written
> some messages on the subject in March. But I also think that
> densitometers have to be checked for matte and gloss readings. It
> will depend on the angle of light in the measure head and
> possibly in the use on polarisation filters in the measure head.
> Similar problems are known in measuring textile colours and with
> the "velvet" matte results we get that analogy isn't so far
> fetched. In general I think the blacks we get are higher in Dmax
> than the spectrometers tell us but not as high as some
> densitometers tell us. A friend has an Eye One where I can
> compare my samples.
>
> Ernst
>
>
>
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