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Thread

QTR printing lighter than on screen...

QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-12 by Steve Kale

I recently calibrated my monitor and Epson 2100 with Gretag Macbeth's Eye-One 
Photo system.  When I use QTR with Carl's curves my prints are about 1/2 a stop or so 
lighter than on screen.  Is this just the difference in printer production tolerances (ie I 
should really construct my own QTR curves for my own printer as I have done for 
colour work) or something else?  I am assuming that in a well calibrated 
environment I should be getting exactly what I see on screen.  Is the QTR/B&W world 
the same as colour in this regard?

Cheers

Steve

Re: QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-12 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale" <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:
> I recently calibrated my monitor and Epson 2100 with Gretag Macbeth's Eye-One 
> Photo system.  When I use QTR with Carl's curves my prints are about 1/2 a stop or so 
> lighter than on screen.  Is this just the difference in printer production tolerances (ie I 
> should really construct my own QTR curves for my own printer as I have done for 
> colour work) or something else?  I am assuming that in a well calibrated 
> environment I should be getting exactly what I see on screen.  Is the QTR/B&W world 
> the same as colour in this regard?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve

Steve,

I've also experienced the same thing.  I don't know the reason -- I'd
also think if everything is calibrated it all ought to match.  Fortunately
its quite easy to create a Proof Setup so you can compare the screen
and the print.  Tyler Boley has a nice write up for doing this in the Files
section of this group.  Check out:

Image Processing>Matching Your Monitor view to Your Prints.pdf

This is well worth the effort.

Roy

Re: [Digital BW] QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-12 by Carl Schofield

Steve,

Don't know if this helps, but my monitor (iMac LCD) is calibrated with  
the eye-one to a target gamma of 2.2 and native white point.   My gray  
working space in Photoshop is G 2.2 and prints match  fairly well to my  
monitor, viewing prints under an Ott Lite.  As Roy suggested you could  
probably get an even better match by soft proofing.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 03:32  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> I recently calibrated my monitor and Epson 2100 with Gretag Macbeth's  
> Eye-One
> Photo system.  When I use QTR with Carl's curves my prints are about  
> 1/2 a stop or so
> lighter than on screen.  Is this just the difference in printer  
> production tolerances (ie I
> should really construct my own QTR curves for my own printer as I have  
> done for
> colour work) or something else?  I am assuming that in a well  
> calibrated
> environment I should be getting exactly what I see on screen.  Is the  
> QTR/B&W world
> the same as colour in this regard?
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-12 by john eckenrode

steve
i had similar problems, i took carl's advice way back
switched from the 1.8 working space to the 2.2 grey
working space and it has improved things.
right on 
john e

--- Carl Schofield <scho@...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> Don't know if this helps, but my monitor (iMac LCD)
> is calibrated with  
> the eye-one to a target gamma of 2.2 and native
> white point.   My gray  
> working space in Photoshop is G 2.2 and prints match
>  fairly well to my  
> monitor, viewing prints under an Ott Lite.  As Roy
> suggested you could  
> probably get an even better match by soft proofing.
> 
> Carl
> On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 03:32  PM, Steve
> Kale wrote:
> 
> > I recently calibrated my monitor and Epson 2100
> with Gretag Macbeth's  
> > Eye-One
> > Photo system.  When I use QTR with Carl's curves
> my prints are about  
> > 1/2 a stop or so
> > lighter than on screen.  Is this just the
> difference in printer  
> > production tolerances (ie I
> > should really construct my own QTR curves for my
> own printer as I have  
> > done for
> > colour work) or something else?  I am assuming
> that in a well  
> > calibrated
> > environment I should be getting exactly what I see
> on screen.  Is the  
> > QTR/B&W world
> > the same as colour in this regard?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> > ---------------------~-->
> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP,
> Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or
> more to the US &  
> > Canada.
> > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> >
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> >
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > ~->
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
> Files, Bookmarks, Polls  
> > and other resources as they are often being
> updated. The page is at:
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> >
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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> preferences by visiting  
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-12 by Steve Kale

Thanks Roy...this makes sense assuming one can get the curve right so that
it is consistent across images.  I don¹t know anything about the guts of QTR
or Gimp etc and I am a novice to the technology behind these things but
stepping back and thinking about this for a moment there must be a way to
extract a proof space from QTR and it¹s curves (rather than by visual
guestimate).  Presumably, and in very laymen terms, QTR maps shades of gray
in the document colour space (eg Gray Gamma 2.2) to a printer/media space.
The doc space can be measured ­ QTR must read values for input ­ and so can
the output space (aren¹t these measured to calculate the ³curves²?).
Presumably a colour space profile can be constructed from the input/output
equation.....much in the same way that we construct ICC profiles in colour
work?  Am I smoking the proverbial here?

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:45:13 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR printing lighter than on screen...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale"
<stevekale@b...> 
wrote:
> I recently calibrated my monitor and Epson 2100 with Gretag Macbeth's Eye-One
> Photo system.  When I use QTR with Carl's curves my prints are about 1/2 a
stop or so 
> lighter than on screen.  Is this just the difference in printer production
tolerances (ie I 
> should really construct my own QTR curves for my own printer as I have done
for 
> colour work) or something else?  I am assuming that in a well calibrated
> environment I should be getting exactly what I see on screen.  Is the QTR/B&W
world 
> the same as colour in this regard?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve

Steve,

I've also experienced the same thing.  I don't know the reason -- I'd
also think if everything is calibrated it all ought to match.  Fortunately
its quite easy to create a Proof Setup so you can compare the screen
and the print.  Tyler Boley has a nice write up for doing this in the Files
section of this group.  Check out:

Image Processing>Matching Your Monitor view to Your Prints.pdf

This is well worth the effort.

Roy




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-12 by Steve Kale

I think the only difference we have is that when I calibrated my monitor I
used D65 as my whitepoint.  I have an Apple Cinema HD Display 23².
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:17:53 -0500
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR printing lighter than on screen...

Steve,

Don't know if this helps, but my monitor (iMac LCD) is calibrated with
the eye-one to a target gamma of 2.2 and native white point.   My gray
working space in Photoshop is G 2.2 and prints match  fairly well to my
monitor, viewing prints under an Ott Lite.  As Roy suggested you could
probably get an even better match by soft proofing.

Carl
On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 03:32  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> I recently calibrated my monitor and Epson 2100 with Gretag Macbeth's
> Eye-One
> Photo system.  When I use QTR with Carl's curves my prints are about
> 1/2 a stop or so
> lighter than on screen.  Is this just the difference in printer
> production tolerances (ie I
> should really construct my own QTR curves for my own printer as I have
> done for
> colour work) or something else?  I am assuming that in a well
> calibrated
> environment I should be getting exactly what I see on screen.  Is the
> QTR/B&W world
> the same as colour in this regard?
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-->
> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
> Canada.
> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ~->
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-13 by Peter Miles

"Roy Harrington" <roy@...> wrote:


Hi Roy

I don't know my self about this either. However I think a person who would
know would be Bruce Lindbloom at <brucelindbloom.com>. He is very
approachable.

You may already know but Bruce has a comapanding Calculator on his web site
for converting between L*, Y, Density & Gamma values. Could be that
photoshop uses one of these other functions for monitor display?

The calculator is in the "Calc" section of his website. There is also a very
interesting blurb under "more info" within his companding calculator.


After I Have liniarised QTR I create an ICC profile using ColorSynergy
software. This solves for me the screen mismatch problem.
The software effectively makes its Tone reproduction curve. Looking at the
Tone Reproduction curves in the ICC profile they all look pretty gentle and
very similar to each other in magnitude for the inkset I'm working with.

Hope this helps.

Kind Regards
Peter Miles
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Message: 15
>  Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:45:13 -0000
>  From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
> Subject: Re: QTR printing lighter than on screen...
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale"
> <stevekale@b...> 
> wrote:
>> I recently calibrated my monitor and Epson 2100 with Gretag Macbeth's Eye-One
>> Photo system.  When I use QTR with Carl's curves my prints are about 1/2 a
>> stop or so 
>> lighter than on screen.  Is this just the difference in printer production
>> tolerances (ie I
>> should really construct my own QTR curves for my own printer as I have done
>> for 
>> colour work) or something else?  I am assuming that in a well calibrated
>> environment I should be getting exactly what I see on screen.  Is the QTR/B&W
>> world 
>> the same as colour in this regard?
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Steve
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I've also experienced the same thing.  I don't know the reason -- I'd
> also think if everything is calibrated it all ought to match.  Fortunately
> its quite easy to create a Proof Setup so you can compare the screen
> and the print.  Tyler Boley has a nice write up for doing this in the Files
> section of this group.  Check out:
> 
> Image Processing>Matching Your Monitor view to Your Prints.pdf
> 
> This is well worth the effort.
> 
> Roy

Re: QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-13 by Roy Harrington

Hi Peter,

I've actually spent quite a bit of time on Lindbloom's website but I've
never been in contact with him.  Anyway, it sure is chock full of information.
There's quite a few formulas there and other places I've investigated.
If you have the formulas it's not difficult to calculate most conversions,
but deciding what you want is the hard part.

For QTR linearization the idea is to make correction curves such that 
linearly spaced grayscale values result in linearly spaced L values on
the paper -- producing linearly spaced perception by our eyes.
Incidentally, I've seen the aims values that IJC/OPM uses for their
linearization and they exactly coincide with QTR.  The stepwedges
I get seem reasonably even by my eyes.

On the other hand when I calibrate my screen and look at a stepwedge
they don't seem nearly as even on the screen.  So I can do a lot better
by making a Proof Setup that brings the screen vs print much closer.
Part of the issue is that the screen has a much larger contrast range
than the print can possibly have.  

I'm not very familiar with internals of ICC profiles, but it is interesting stuff.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter Miles <P.Miles@m...> 
wrote:
>  "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Roy
> 
> I don't know my self about this either. However I think a person who would
> know would be Bruce Lindbloom at <brucelindbloom.com>. He is very
> approachable.
> 
> You may already know but Bruce has a comapanding Calculator on his web site
> for converting between L*, Y, Density & Gamma values. Could be that
> photoshop uses one of these other functions for monitor display?
> 
> The calculator is in the "Calc" section of his website. There is also a very
> interesting blurb under "more info" within his companding calculator.
> 
> 
> After I Have liniarised QTR I create an ICC profile using ColorSynergy
> software. This solves for me the screen mismatch problem.
> The software effectively makes its Tone reproduction curve. Looking at the
> Tone Reproduction curves in the ICC profile they all look pretty gentle and
> very similar to each other in magnitude for the inkset I'm working with.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Kind Regards
> Peter Miles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Message: 15
> >  Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:45:13 -0000
> >  From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...>
> > Subject: Re: QTR printing lighter than on screen...
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale"
> > <stevekale@b...> 
> > wrote:
> >> I recently calibrated my monitor and Epson 2100 with Gretag Macbeth's Eye-
One
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >> Photo system.  When I use QTR with Carl's curves my prints are about 1/2 a
> >> stop or so 
> >> lighter than on screen.  Is this just the difference in printer production
> >> tolerances (ie I
> >> should really construct my own QTR curves for my own printer as I have done
> >> for 
> >> colour work) or something else?  I am assuming that in a well calibrated
> >> environment I should be getting exactly what I see on screen.  Is the QTR/B&W
> >> world 
> >> the same as colour in this regard?
> >> 
> >> Cheers
> >> 
> >> Steve
> > 
> > Steve,
> > 
> > I've also experienced the same thing.  I don't know the reason -- I'd
> > also think if everything is calibrated it all ought to match.  Fortunately
> > its quite easy to create a Proof Setup so you can compare the screen
> > and the print.  Tyler Boley has a nice write up for doing this in the Files
> > section of this group.  Check out:
> > 
> > Image Processing>Matching Your Monitor view to Your Prints.pdf
> > 
> > This is well worth the effort.
> > 
> > Roy

Re: [Digital BW] QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-16 by Steve Kale

I just wanted to come back to this for a second.  I just printed the same i=
mage I was 
playing around with when I noticed the "QTR printing lighter" issue - this =
time 
converting the image to RGB and simply using the Epson driver with the prof=
ile I had 
made for my colour printing.  The detail/density (especially the darkest ar=
eas of the 
image) is pretty much bang on what I see on screen (but of course has all t=
he other 
issues asociated with using the Epson driver) - as is the colour match when=
 
comparing soft proofed colour images to their prints.  Sounds like I should=
 delve into 
creating curves specifically for my printer.  Is this difficult?

Also a question for Carl:  if you use 1440x720HQ for B&W and QTR, what dpi =
are you 
using for colour?  Should I not use 2880 at all? 

Cheers

Steve




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@=
b...> 
wrote:
> I think the only difference we have is that when I calibrated my monitor =
I
> used D65 as my whitepoint.  I have an Apple Cinema HD Display 23².
> 
> 
> From: Carl Schofield <scho@m...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:17:53 -0500
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR printing lighter than on screen...
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Don't know if this helps, but my monitor (iMac LCD) is calibrated with
> the eye-one to a target gamma of 2.2 and native white point.   My gray
> working space in Photoshop is G 2.2 and prints match  fairly well to my
> monitor, viewing prints under an Ott Lite.  As Roy suggested you could
> probably get an even better match by soft proofing.
> 
> Carl
> On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 03:32  PM, Steve Kale wrote:
> 
> > I recently calibrated my monitor and Epson 2100 with Gretag Macbeth's
> > Eye-One
> > Photo system.  When I use QTR with Carl's curves my prints are about
> > 1/2 a stop or so
> > lighter than on screen.  Is this just the difference in printer
> > production tolerances (ie I
> > should really construct my own QTR curves for my own printer as I have
> > done for
> > colour work) or something else?  I am assuming that in a well
> > calibrated
> > environment I should be getting exactly what I see on screen.  Is the
> > QTR/B&W world
> > the same as colour in this regard?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ---------------------~-->
> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
> > Canada.
> > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> > 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ~->
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> > keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> > various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> 
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D=egrou
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hits.411web.com/cg
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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p
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.=

> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-16 by Carl Schofield

With the Epson driver, I use the 1440 dpi-Photo resolution setting 
(high speed off) for color printing and don't see any significant 
improvement using 2880 dpi when printing on matte papers.  If you print 
on glossy, RC papers you might get slightly higher definition of fine 
detail with 2880.  QTR and the 2200 profiles are calibrated for 
1440x720HQ and I don't recommend using other resolutions.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 02:45  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> I just wanted to come back to this for a second.  I just printed the 
> same i=
> mage I was
> playing around with when I noticed the "QTR printing lighter" issue - 
> this =
> time
> converting the image to RGB and simply using the Epson driver with the 
> prof=
> ile I had
> made for my colour printing.  The detail/density (especially the 
> darkest ar=
> eas of the
> image) is pretty much bang on what I see on screen (but of course has 
> all t=
> he other
> issues asociated with using the Epson driver) - as is the colour match 
> when=
>
> comparing soft proofed colour images to their prints.  Sounds like I 
> should=
>  delve into
> creating curves specifically for my printer.  Is this difficult?
>
> Also a question for Carl:  if you use 1440x720HQ for B&W and QTR, what 
> dpi =
> are you
> using for colour?  Should I not use 2880 at all?
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve

Re: [Digital BW] QTR printing lighter than on screen...

2003-11-16 by Steve Kale

Thanks.  This is consistent with what I have been doing thus far.

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:04:43 -0500
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR printing lighter than on screen...

With the Epson driver, I use the 1440 dpi-Photo resolution setting
(high speed off) for color printing and don't see any significant
improvement using 2880 dpi when printing on matte papers.  If you print
on glossy, RC papers you might get slightly higher definition of fine
detail with 2880.  QTR and the 2200 profiles are calibrated for
1440x720HQ and I don't recommend using other resolutions.

Carl
On Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 02:45  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> I just wanted to come back to this for a second.  I just printed the
> same i=
> mage I was
> playing around with when I noticed the "QTR printing lighter" issue -
> this =
> time
> converting the image to RGB and simply using the Epson driver with the
> prof=
> ile I had
> made for my colour printing.  The detail/density (especially the
> darkest ar=
> eas of the
> image) is pretty much bang on what I see on screen (but of course has
> all t=
> he other
> issues asociated with using the Epson driver) - as is the colour match
> when=
>
> comparing soft proofed colour images to their prints.  Sounds like I
> should=
>  delve into
> creating curves specifically for my printer.  Is this difficult?
>
> Also a question for Carl:  if you use 1440x720HQ for B&W and QTR, what
> dpi =
> are you
> using for colour?  Should I not use 2880 at all?
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve


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