Digital BW, The Print

try what I may I cant get rid of the lack of smoothness between the 
tones in the cloudy sky section of a landscape shot. There's no point 
in posting a jpeg for you to see 'cos it looks good on screen even at 
100% view but prints out like - i'm not even sure how to describe it -
'mottled' isn't exactly it but its close. This problem is most 
evident in the area where a darkish cloud texture meets the lighter 
sky texture.

I did my scan and most of the initial corrections in 16bit and then 
some in 8. I'm working with Win98SE and PS7 and an 1160 printer with 
MIS sepia>neutral inkset on photorag.

One symptom which may provide a clue for solving the problem, for 
someone, is that I had Layers for darkening/burning in  the top of 
the image and the corners. The problem was excessive. Then I 
eliminated each of those layers (lighteninig the image segments) and 
the problem reduced or just became less evident

I also have a High Pass sharpening layer - could that be it ?

I just looked at Image>Histogram and find it pretty "comb" like - is 
this it ? Is it 'posterization' ? Should I go back to the 16 bit scan 
and try to do more there before converting to 8 and printing ?

thanks
Frank

forgot to say that I'm applying Pauls Curves to the file
==========================================================
> try what I may I cant get rid of the lack of smoothness between the 
> tones in the cloudy sky section of a landscape shot. There's no 
point 
> in posting a jpeg for you to see 'cos it looks good on screen even 
at 
> 100% view but prints out like - i'm not even sure how to describe 
it -
> 'mottled' isn't exactly it but its close. This problem is most 
> evident in the area where a darkish cloud texture meets the lighter 
> sky texture.
> 
> I did my scan and most of the initial corrections in 16bit and then 
> some in 8. I'm working with Win98SE and PS7 and an 1160 printer 
with 
> MIS sepia>neutral inkset on photorag.
> 
> One symptom which may provide a clue for solving the problem, for 
> someone, is that I had Layers for darkening/burning in  the top of 
> the image and the corners. The problem was excessive. Then I 
> eliminated each of those layers (lighteninig the image segments) 
and 
> the problem reduced or just became less evident
> 
> I also have a High Pass sharpening layer - could that be it ?
> 
> I just looked at Image>Histogram and find it pretty "comb" like - 
is 
> this it ? Is it 'posterization' ? Should I go back to the 16 bit 
scan 

> and try to do more there before converting to 8 and printing ?
> 
> thanks
> Frank

* -----Original Message-----
* From: frankg_photo [mailto:fh.gross@sympatico.ca] 
* Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 8:33 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: [Digital BW] smoth transition of tones problem
* 
* 
* try what I may I cant get rid of the lack of smoothness between the 
* tones in the cloudy sky section of a landscape shot. There's no point 
* in posting a jpeg for you to see 'cos it looks good on screen even at 
* 100% view but prints out like - i'm not even sure how to 
* describe it - 'mottled' isn't exactly it but its close. This 
* problem is most 
* evident in the area where a darkish cloud texture meets the lighter 
* sky texture.
* 
* I did my scan and most of the initial corrections in 16bit and then 
* some in 8. I'm working with Win98SE and PS7 and an 1160 printer with 
* MIS sepia>neutral inkset on photorag.
* 
* One symptom which may provide a clue for solving the problem, for 
* someone, is that I had Layers for darkening/burning in  the top of 
* the image and the corners. The problem was excessive. Then I 
* eliminated each of those layers (lighteninig the image segments) and 
* the problem reduced or just became less evident
* 
* I also have a High Pass sharpening layer - could that be it ?
* 
* I just looked at Image>Histogram and find it pretty "comb" like - is 
* this it ? Is it 'posterization' ? Should I go back to the 16 bit scan 
* and try to do more there before converting to 8 and printing ?
* 
Frank,

You can get away with some or a lot of "combing" in the histogram depending
upon the nature of the image. In your current situation I would suggest
applying your adjustments to a 16-bit version of the image and see what
happens

If you still have the problem then you may not be getting a perfectly linear
response with the RGB separation curves in the tonal range that is crucial
to your sky. One way around this is to try a different separation curve or
use two or more separation curve layers with different curves and different
opacity (adding to 100%) so that the effect of the curve is blended. 

Beyond that you might want to take a look at the scan or scanning process to
see it anything was done that might have damaged the data. Try printing the
unadjusted scan file and see what you get.

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Probably not your same problem, but I suffered "mottling" lack of 
smooth tone transitions when I first started out and was testing 
various printer profiles and rendering intents. It was a big problem 
with profiles I created using Monaco's software. Images were fine on 
screen, lousy on paper. When converted to grayscale, tone transitions 
prnted smooth. I assumed the problem was due to poor conversion of 
image data to workspace by the profile/driver combo. Not apparent on 
low saturation images, but apparent on most normal color images.

I went with ImagePrint and all such problems disappeared and I never 
looked back. Suggest you try a different profile, or lower 
saturation, maybe all the way to grayscale, as a test. If the problem 
goes away, I think it's good evidence of a profile problem.

Hi Frank,

Try printing the 100 step, then 256 step grey scales. 
It will assist in defining the problem areas in the curves,
or will show that your image is the source of the difficulty.

Best,
Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo" 
<fh.gross@s...> wrote:
> try what I may I cant get rid of the lack of smoothness between the 
> tones in the cloudy sky section of a landscape shot.

> * try what I may I cant get rid of the lack of smoothness between 
the 
> * tones in the cloudy sky section of a landscape shot. There's no 
point 
> * in posting a jpeg for you to see 'cos it looks good on screen 
even at 
> * 100% view but prints out like - i'm not even sure how to 
> * describe it - 'mottled' isn't exactly it but its close. This 
> * problem is most 
> * evident in the area where a darkish cloud texture meets the 
lighter 
> * sky texture.
> * 
> * I did my scan and most of the initial corrections in 16bit and 
then 
> * some in 8. I'm working with Win98SE and PS7 and an 1160 printer 
with 
> * MIS sepia>neutral inkset on photorag.
> * 
> * One symptom which may provide a clue for solving the problem, for 
> * someone, is that I had Layers for darkening/burning in  the top 
of 
> * the image and the corners. The problem was excessive. Then I 
> * eliminated each of those layers (lighteninig the image segments) 
and 
> * the problem reduced or just became less evident
> * 
> * I also have a High Pass sharpening layer - could that be it ?
> * 
> * I just looked at Image>Histogram and find it pretty "comb" like - 
is 
> * this it ? Is it 'posterization' ? Should I go back to the 16 bit 
scan 
> * and try to do more there before converting to 8 and printing ?
> * 
> Frank,
=============================================== 
> You can get away with some or a lot of "combing" in the histogram 
depending
> upon the nature of the image. In your current situation I would 
suggest
> applying your adjustments to a 16-bit version of the image and see 
what
> happens
> 
> If you still have the problem then you may not be getting a 
perfectly linear
> response with the RGB separation curves in the tonal range that is 
crucial
> to your sky. One way around this is to try a different separation 
curve or
> use two or more separation curve layers with different curves and 
different
> opacity (adding to 100%) so that the effect of the curve is 
blended. 
> 
> Beyond that you might want to take a look at the scan or scanning 
process to
> see it anything was done that might have damaged the data. Try 
printing the
> unadjusted scan file and see what you get.
> 
=============================================

I need a little more explanation on this "you may not be getting a 
perfectly linear response with the RGB separation curves in the tonal 
range that is crucial to your sky. One way around this is to try a 
different separation curve oruse two or more separation curve layers 
with different curves and differentopacity (adding to 100%) so that 
the effect of the curve is blended."

Are the adjustment curves I'm using to affect the contrast in the 
image what you've called "RGB separation" curves ? Or, Paul's curves 
that i apply at the end? 
============================================

* -----Original Message-----
* From: frankg_photo [mailto:fh.gross@sympatico.ca] 
* Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 8:29 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] smoth transition of tones problem
* 
(snip earlier)
* > 
* =============================================
* 
* I need a little more explanation on this "you may not be getting a 
* perfectly linear response with the RGB separation curves in the tonal 
* range that is crucial to your sky. One way around this is to try a 
* different separation curve oruse two or more separation curve layers 
* with different curves and differentopacity (adding to 100%) so that 
* the effect of the curve is blended."

Frank,

For each printer there are a set or set of RGB separation curves created by
Paul or someone else to achieve different hues in the print. Some of these
curves give more linear results than another and some work better with one
particular printer. What can be done is to use two curves, say a Neutral and
a Warm, on separate curve adjustment layers and vary the opacity of the
layers 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30 or anything you want to make prints that have a
hue somewhere in between Neutral and Warm. This technique can also help if
one of the curves has a non-linear area in the tone ramp.
* 
* Are the adjustment curves I'm using to affect the contrast in the 
* image what you've called "RGB separation" curves ? Or, Paul's curves 
* that i apply at the end? 

Paul's workflow is a RGB separation curve method since it uses RGB curves to
partition the gray inks to print in separate tonal ranges. This technique is
used with Variable Mix and standard gray scale ink sets.

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html