Digital BW, The Print

[Cross-posted from EpsonWideFormat group]

> What is the best paper for printing a fine art BW portrait on a 7600
> w photoblack ink?

>> Hahnemuhle Photorag.

>> Bam, I would guess that you should be using matte black rather than 
>> photo black.  I print with a 7600 and UC inks with IP, on Somerset 
>> velvet, and blacks look great.

What paper to use for printing B&W on a 7600 with Photo Black ink is 
the big question as far as I am concerned. First the background: for 
color in making 16x24 and 24x36 color prints for an exhibition I tried 
both Photo Black and Matte Black inks and concluded that Photo Black on 
Epson Semi-Matte paper looked substantially better than Matte Black on 
Epson Enhanced Matte (EEM) or Photo Rag. Basically, while some people 
are happy with matte paper prints, looking at prints of the same images 
side-by-side, the Photo Black/Semi-Matte combination produces wider 
gamut, better saturation, deeper blacks, broader dynamic range, 
smoother tonal transitions and sharper prints than Matte Black with 
matte paper. And the difference is not even close -- the Photo 
Black/Semi-Matte prints are substantially better.

For B&W, my conclusions are similar: looking at the same photo printed 
with Photo Black/Semi-Matte and with Matte Black/EEM shows that the 
former produces deeper blacks, brighter highlights and smoother tonal 
transitions (better gradation). The same photo printed with Photo 
Black/EEM produces a flatter, muddier print than Matte Black/EEM, and 
to me is not acceptable. (Incidentally, Matte Black looks substantially 
better on EEM than on Photo Rag -- the fact that the Ultrachrome inks 
don't look very good on Photo Rag has been confirmed by many other 
people on this group and on the DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint goup.)

I know that many people are happy with and prefer to print B&W  on 
matte papers and, while such prints are often beautiful they just are 
not a "bright" and photographic as silver prints. There is nothing 
remarkable in this statement: Ansel Adams in his book, The Print, 
stated years ago that the brightness range of a print on glossy paper 
is much greater than that on a matte paper, and that is why he 
preferred the look of air-dried glossy prints. While inkjet prints on 
matte paper can look very much like platinum prints, they look quite 
different from silver prints on glossy air-dried paper.

In my view, Photo Black/Semi-Matte B&W come the closest to air-dried 
silver prints on glossy paper, but there is a big problem as these 
prints show "bronzing" as you vary the angle at which light falls on 
the paper or your angle of view. I am told that lamination eliminates 
bronzing, and that prints framed under glass also don't show bronzing 
but it's a problem to try to sell such a print if the buyer sees it 
before it is under glass. Now, if I could only find a paper like 
Semi-Matte than prints with Photo Black without bronzing...

--Mitch/Bangkok

Was IP used to print on the semi-matt?
 
Tom Baker

Mitch Alland <malland@...> wrote:
[Cross-posted from EpsonWideFormat group]

> What is the best paper for printing a fine art BW portrait on a 7600
> w photoblack ink?

>> Hahnemuhle Photorag.

>> Bam, I would guess that you should be using matte black rather than 
>> photo black.  I print with a 7600 and UC inks with IP, on Somerset 
>> velvet, and blacks look great.

What paper to use for printing B&W on a 7600 with Photo Black ink is 
the big question as far as I am concerned. First the background: for 
color in making 16x24 and 24x36 color prints for an exhibition I tried 
both Photo Black and Matte Black inks and concluded that Photo Black on 
Epson Semi-Matte paper looked substantially better than Matte Black on 
Epson Enhanced Matte (EEM) or Photo Rag. Basically, while some people 
are happy with matte paper prints, looking at prints of the same images 
side-by-side, the Photo Black/Semi-Matte combination produces wider 
gamut, better saturation, deeper blacks, broader dynamic range, 
smoother tonal transitions and sharper prints than Matte Black with 
matte paper. And the difference is not even close -- the Photo 
Black/Semi-Matte prints are substantially better.

For B&W, my conclusions are similar: looking at the same photo printed 
with Photo Black/Semi-Matte and with Matte Black/EEM shows that the 
former produces deeper blacks, brighter highlights and smoother tonal 
transitions (better gradation). The same photo printed with Photo 
Black/EEM produces a flatter, muddier print than Matte Black/EEM, and 
to me is not acceptable. (Incidentally, Matte Black looks substantially 
better on EEM than on Photo Rag -- the fact that the Ultrachrome inks 
don't look very good on Photo Rag has been confirmed by many other 
people on this group and on the DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint goup.)

I know that many people are happy with and prefer to print B&W  on 
matte papers and, while such prints are often beautiful they just are 
not a "bright" and photographic as silver prints. There is nothing 
remarkable in this statement: Ansel Adams in his book, The Print, 
stated years ago that the brightness range of a print on glossy paper 
is much greater than that on a matte paper, and that is why he 
preferred the look of air-dried glossy prints. While inkjet prints on 
matte paper can look very much like platinum prints, they look quite 
different from silver prints on glossy air-dried paper.

In my view, Photo Black/Semi-Matte B&W come the closest to air-dried 
silver prints on glossy paper, but there is a big problem as these 
prints show "bronzing" as you vary the angle at which light falls on 
the paper or your angle of view. I am told that lamination eliminates 
bronzing, and that prints framed under glass also don't show bronzing 
but it's a problem to try to sell such a print if the buyer sees it 
before it is under glass. Now, if I could only find a paper like 
Semi-Matte than prints with Photo Black without bronzing...

--Mitch/Bangkok


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For: Tom Baker

> Was IP used to print on the semi-matt?

Yes, I use ImagePrint.

--Mitch/Bangkok

Mitch,

I use MIS Ultratones to print black and white prints and have made 
similar conclusions that you mention using the Ultrachromes. Using a 
semigloss paper makes a remarkable difference in print quality when 
compared side by side to the same image printed on a matte paper. 
Yes, it is a matter of taste, but it is also a matter of physics that 
semigloss/glossy papers will be able to print with an expanded range 
and deeper blacks. 

As for the bronzing problem, have you tried using an overspray such 
as PremierArt spray? I have found this to virtually eliminate the 
problem when using the Ultratone inks, though it is somewhat 
dependent on the paper. I do not know if this would apply equally 
well to the Ultrachrome inks.
Also, have you tried using Epson Professional Glossy Paper (aka 
Glossy Paper Photo Weight in roll form)? I found this to have the 
least bronzing of any glossy paper for black and white prints. The 
print surface is almost exactly like a traditionally processed black 
and white fiber based print. I would prefer a thicker base with the 
same surface characteristics, but that doesn't seem to exist.

Dirk Hobman




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland 
<malland@x> wrote:
> [Cross-posted from EpsonWideFormat group]
> 
> > What is the best paper for printing a fine art BW portrait on a 
7600
> > w photoblack ink?
> 
> >> Hahnemuhle Photorag.
> 
> >> Bam, I would guess that you should be using matte black rather 
than 
> >> photo black.  I print with a 7600 and UC inks with IP, on 
Somerset 
> >> velvet, and blacks look great.
> 
> What paper to use for printing B&W on a 7600 with Photo Black ink 
is 
> the big question as far as I am concerned. First the background: 
for 
> color in making 16x24 and 24x36 color prints for an exhibition I 
tried 
> both Photo Black and Matte Black inks and concluded that Photo 
Black on 
> Epson Semi-Matte paper looked substantially better than Matte Black 
on 
> Epson Enhanced Matte (EEM) or Photo Rag. Basically, while some 
people 
> are happy with matte paper prints, looking at prints of the same 
images 
> side-by-side, the Photo Black/Semi-Matte combination produces wider 
> gamut, better saturation, deeper blacks, broader dynamic range, 
> smoother tonal transitions and sharper prints than Matte Black with 
> matte paper. And the difference is not even close -- the Photo 
> Black/Semi-Matte prints are substantially better.
> 
> For B&W, my conclusions are similar: looking at the same photo 
printed 
> with Photo Black/Semi-Matte and with Matte Black/EEM shows that the 
> former produces deeper blacks, brighter highlights and smoother 
tonal 
> transitions (better gradation). The same photo printed with Photo 
> Black/EEM produces a flatter, muddier print than Matte Black/EEM, 
and 
> to me is not acceptable. (Incidentally, Matte Black looks 
substantially 
> better on EEM than on Photo Rag -- the fact that the Ultrachrome 
inks 
> don't look very good on Photo Rag has been confirmed by many other 
> people on this group and on the DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint goup.)
> 
> I know that many people are happy with and prefer to print B&W  on 
> matte papers and, while such prints are often beautiful they just 
are 
> not a "bright" and photographic as silver prints. There is nothing 
> remarkable in this statement: Ansel Adams in his book, The Print, 
> stated years ago that the brightness range of a print on glossy 
paper 
> is much greater than that on a matte paper, and that is why he 
> preferred the look of air-dried glossy prints. While inkjet prints 
on 
> matte paper can look very much like platinum prints, they look 
quite 
> different from silver prints on glossy air-dried paper.
> 
> In my view, Photo Black/Semi-Matte B&W come the closest to air-
dried 
> silver prints on glossy paper, but there is a big problem as these 
> prints show "bronzing" as you vary the angle at which light falls 
on 
> the paper or your angle of view. I am told that lamination 
eliminates 
> bronzing, and that prints framed under glass also don't show 
bronzing 

> but it's a problem to try to sell such a print if the buyer sees it 
> before it is under glass. Now, if I could only find a paper like 
> Semi-Matte than prints with Photo Black without bronzing...
> 
> --Mitch/Bangkok

For: Dirk Hobman

> As for the bronzing problem, have you tried using an overspray such
> as PremierArt spray? I have found this to virtually eliminate the
> problem when using the Ultratone inks, though it is somewhat
> dependent on the paper. I do not know if this would apply equally
> well to the Ultrachrome inks.

Can this spray be used on large prints (16x24 and 24x36 inches)?


> Also, have you tried using Epson Professional Glossy Paper (aka
> Glossy Paper Photo Weight in roll form)? I found this to have the
> least bronzing of any glossy paper for black and white prints. The
> print surface is almost exactly like a traditionally processed black
> and white fiber based print. I would prefer a thicker base with the
> same surface characteristics, but that doesn't seem to exist.

I'll have to try this paper, but I see that it comes only in a 22 inch 
and not a 24 inch roll and that it's weight is only 215g/sqm which 
could be a bit thin for large prints -- Semi-Matte is 250g/sqm. What do 
you think?

--Mitch/Bangkok

For Mitch:

Yes, the PremierArt spray could be used for large prints. It adds one 
more step to the process, but it not only seems to help with bronzing 
but also is the only spray shown to extend print life (at least on 
some papers). There are details at www.wilhelm-research.com. You can 
purchase it from www.inkjetart.com.

As for the Epson Glossy Paper Photo Weight - yes, I think it might be 
trouble for larger prints. I tend to dry mount my prints, so then 
it's not such an issue. But I think it might otherwise be too thin. 
As I said, I really wish Epson would release it with a thicker base.

I have been trying like crazy to get a sample of some black and white 
output using ImagePrint and the Ultrachromes on a semigloss paper. If 
you'd be able to help me out with this, please contact me off list at 
dhobman@.... Perhaps I could send you a few sheets of the 
Epson Glossy Paper Photo Weight in exchange for a sample output of 
yours on the semimatte paper (which I would be happy to send back 
after seeing it). Or we could make other arrangements.

Dirk Hobman


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland 
<malland@x> wrote:
> For: Dirk Hobman
> 
> > As for the bronzing problem, have you tried using an overspray 
such
> > as PremierArt spray? I have found this to virtually eliminate the
> > problem when using the Ultratone inks, though it is somewhat
> > dependent on the paper. I do not know if this would apply equally
> > well to the Ultrachrome inks.
> 
> Can this spray be used on large prints (16x24 and 24x36 inches)?
> 
> 
> > Also, have you tried using Epson Professional Glossy Paper (aka
> > Glossy Paper Photo Weight in roll form)? I found this to have the
> > least bronzing of any glossy paper for black and white prints. The
> > print surface is almost exactly like a traditionally processed 
black
> > and white fiber based print. I would prefer a thicker base with 
the
> > same surface characteristics, but that doesn't seem to exist.
> 
> I'll have to try this paper, but I see that it comes only in a 22 
inch 
> and not a 24 inch roll and that it's weight is only 215g/sqm which 
> could be a bit thin for large prints -- Semi-Matte is 250g/sqm. 
What do 

> you think?
> 
> --Mitch/Bangkok

> I have been trying like crazy to get a sample of some black and 
white 
> output using ImagePrint and the Ultrachromes on a semigloss paper. 

I have tried epson UC inks and premium semimatte.  The bronzing is 
too extreme for my tastes.  I get far better results using 
Ultachromes with Matte black on Photo Rag.

Quentin