Digital BW, The Print

Ask any professional videographer whether or not they would prefer a 3-chip 
or single chip camera. They will look at funny for asking a question with an 
obvious answer.

The only 3-chip camera ever produced (all were hand built) with high enough 
resolution for still photography (yes I had the Sony, but they cheated) is the 
prism Foveon. Price has always bee the main barier.

Carver Mead, it's founder created the gallium arsenide family of chips, VLSI, 
which makes ALL modern computers possible, the touch pads on our laptops, and 
most of electronics for cell phones. He is a pioneer of neural networks and 
developed an artificial cochlea and retina, which the original Foveon camera 
was based on. As a beta tester and owner of that camera for over 4.5 years, I 
can attest to it's quality. I sold all my Hasselblads in 1999 because of it and 
became totally filmless in my studio, retaining only my 4x5 Sinar for film 
(used once in 5 years). The Foveon has never produced moire under any 
circumstance of tens of thousands of images, near or far.

The X3 chip in the Sigma retains all the same principles (no moire and full 
color sampling at every pixel). I co-incidentally proposed that they develop it 
based on the principles of quantum effeciciency and penetration depth of 
silicon. The X3 chip in the SD9 (now SD 10) costs less than $1,000 vs. $30,000 for 
the original Foveon. I have shot them side by side on my torture test and 
they look uncannily similar. Different animals, same principles.

I have a 13x19 Black and White quad print from an SD-9 that looks like it was 
made from 4x5 Tech Pan. I also have 24x36" prints in color that are amazing 
as well. Most of my hard core darkroom friends don't believe the detail is from 
that chip. So, that camera is excellent for Black and white work and is 
sharper than the 10D and the Fuji S2 (I own 2 each of both).

It took 20 years for everyone to accept Carver Mead's ideas and realize his 
genius. Could it be he will be proven correct in 15 years?

I can attest first had as to the superiority of images with no color 
interpolation (I also have a high res. 4x5 Scan back).

However, for most images, the 10d and S2 are simply good enough. I earn a 
good living from both and the Foveon (depends on the job). Once you have tried a 
Sigma, you will not be dissapointed in image quality. Incredible colors, 
detail, and great B&W. Let me know if you need proof. But that being said, you need 
to shoot one and try for yourself. Heck, buy one with a 50mm Macro and sell 
it on Ebay if you don't agree. The loss is cheap rent for a month.

Claude

I have sold many large images from the Foveon and many from a loaner SD-9, so 
I can attest to their quality.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

claudej1@... writes:

> Ask any professional videographer whether or not they would prefer a 3-chip
> or single chip camera. They will look at funny for asking a question with an
> obvious answer.

Yes.  Consumer video went through all of this long ago.  Until 3-CCD
consumer video cameras became available, lots of people offered all
sorts of rationalizations for preferring single-CCD cameras with matrix
filters, despite their obvious inferiority. Some still do, if they can't
afford a 3-CCD camera (although lots of the better consumer models have
three CCDs now).

Claude,

> Carver Mead, it's founder created the gallium arsenide family of
> chips, VLSI,
> which makes ALL modern computers possible...

All?  Possible?  That's simply not true.  There are no gallium arsenide
computer chips in %99.9999999 of modern computers, these chips (processor,
memory, chipsets etc.) are silicon based.  (for those that don't know VLSI
means is Very Large Scale Integration...basically a lot of transistors
packed together in one package...and it's considered arcane technology
today, as today's computer chips are hundreds of millions of gates,
sometimes called ULSI, and most are considered ASICs today, Application
Specific IC, such as your video controller and motherboard chip set).  Also,
VLSI doesn't mean it *has* to use GaAs, GaAs is simply one of many processes
that was used to make a VLSI IC, or other semi-conductors.

GaAs is primarily used in optoelectric, RF and power devices today, such as
discrete LEDs, diodes...  It's not a very efficient process either power
wise or size wise, hence, the lack of use in modern mainstream ICs.  Gallium
Arsenide is probably going to be replaced by Silicon Germanium in short
order, as SiGe has better characteristics, and offers lower power and higher
speed.

> I co-incidentally proposed that they develop it
> based on the principles of quantum effeciciency and penetration depth of
> silicon.

What, exactly, are you saying here, Claude?  That it was your idea?  Are you
co-named on their patents?

> ...the touch pads on our
> laptops, and
> most of electronics for cell phones.

There were many companies that developed touch pads long before Synaptics
(and touch pads have nothing to do with GaAs), and I'm not sure what
involvement he had with cell phones, but from what I can tell, it wasn't
substantial, if even of much, if any, significance to the industry.

> It took 20 years for everyone to accept Carver Mead's ideas and
> realize his
> genius. Could it be he will be proven correct in 15 years?

Long before Mead and the Foveon, the ideal of three dimensional silicon for
image sensors was around.  He didn't invent the idea, "he" simply came up
with an implementation.  That is certainly significant, but he didn't invent
the idea, as you seem to believe.

You really overstate Mead's "accomplishments", and the significance of
them...why, I have no idea.

From my experience with the Foveon, it's OK, not great, but OK.  It has some
problems, and significant ones at that, mostly to do with color fidelity and
low light operation.  Whether these issues can be resolved I'm not sure.
I'm sure they can be dealt with to some degree, and I believe the technology
has a future.  Again, how significant a future, I'm not sure.

Regards,

Austin

--- claudej1@... wrote:
> But that being said, you need 
> to shoot one and try for yourself. Heck, buy one
> with a 50mm Macro and sell 
> it on Ebay if you don't agree. The loss is cheap
> rent for a month.
> 

On that note, I was visiting Norman Camera in Grand
Rapids, Mi last week - They had new SD-9 kits for $800
with lens and other things.  If I had the extra cash
it would've been mine.

Don

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Unfortunatelly it looks like sharpenned with USM.
We still compare apples to oranges IMHO.
Jack

Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

> Daniel Staver writes:
>
> > For those of us who prefers actual real life samples to long winded
> > arguments these pages are pretty interesting:
> >
> > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd9/page20.asp
> > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd9/page22.asp
>
> The SD9 looks a lot better to me. I see what looks like chromatic
> aberration (and the review agrees), but that is probably elsewhere than
> on the sensor (the D60 just is too blurry to show it).
>
>
>
>
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-- 

_________________________________________________
Jack M Kucy
JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
917-991-2096 jmk@...
Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
_________________________________________________
...a riveder le stelle

Actually the US Department of defense was working with industry in the 
late 60's to develop the gallium arsenate technology (amoung others). It 
was one technology that showed promise in developing faster super 
computers. The issue with it is it is a power hog - and heat producer. 
It is used in many RF applications and it is the only technology that 
can support very high bandwidth (>= GHz) analogue to digital converters. 

Probably the best thing that can be said about it is that through almost 
40 years of development there have been a huge number of spin off 
technologies that are much better.

My understanding is the Foveon chip uses a quantum effects of silicon to 
provide filtering of photons so that the sensors can actually be stacked 
and the red photon ( I don't remember which is the top level so it may 
be green or blue) passes right through the sensor for the other photons 
on the way to its sensor.

Since the RGB sensors are stacked this camera may be one digital where 
B&W conversion from RGB makes sense.

Truman

Truman

Austin Franklin wrote:

> Claude,
>
> > Carver Mead, it's founder created the gallium arsenide family of
> > chips, VLSI,
> > which makes ALL modern computers possible...
>
> All?  Possible?  That's simply not true.  There are no gallium arsenide
> computer chips in %99.9999999 of modern computers, these chips (processor,
> memory, chipsets etc.) are silicon based.  (for those that don't know VLSI
> means is Very Large Scale Integration...basically a lot of transistors
> packed together in one package...and it's considered arcane technology
> today, as today's computer chips are hundreds of millions of gates,
> sometimes called ULSI, and most are considered ASICs today, Application
> Specific IC, such as your video controller and motherboard chip set).  
> Also,
> VLSI doesn't mean it *has* to use GaAs, GaAs is simply one of many 
> processes
> that was used to make a VLSI IC, or other semi-conductors.
>

At 04:47 PM 12/31/2003, you wrote:
>Actually the US Department of defense was working with industry in the
>late 60's to develop the gallium arsenate technology (amoung others). It
>was one technology that showed promise in developing faster super
>computers. The issue with it is it is a power hog - and heat producer.
>It is used in many RF applications and it is the only technology that
>can support very high bandwidth (>= GHz) analogue to digital converters.

It used to  be said that "Gallium arsenide is the wave of the future in 
semiconductor technology; always has been; always will be."

:-)

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com