Digital BW, The Print

Forgive me folks, as I don't have the Piezo software I don't have
instructions for setting up custom dot gain curves, but I'd like to learn
more about them to see how they might benefit my workflow (presently MIS
VM). I looked for info about it on inkjetmall's site but I couldn't find it.
If it isn't a violation of some sort would someone be willing to email me
the directions for setting up the gain curves from your piezo instruction
set?

Why are custom dot gain curves necessary for Piezo? I am of the impression
that profiles should make dot gain curves unnecessary. Is that right? Isn't
the idea that you are supposed to calibrate your monitor to a particular
standard, and your printer/paper/ink gets profiled to a different standard,
and when both of these devices are each properly calibrated and profiled to
their own standard, the net result is a good match? Thus, where does the
custom dot gain fit in-- is it meant to be in lieu of a properly
calibrated/profiled monitor, or is it only intended as a stop gap measure
for papers for which you do not have a profile?

Thanks 
Todd

Todd Flashner wrote:
> Forgive me folks, as I don't have the Piezo software I don't have
> instructions for setting up custom dot gain curves, but I'd like to 
learn
> more about them to see how they might benefit my workflow 
(presently MIS
> VM). I looked for info about it on inkjetmall's site but I couldn't 
find it.
Todd,

Here is the direct link for the Piezography manual:

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/ts/piezobw_MAC_update/Piezogr
aphyBWmanual_v3e.hqx

I'm a former Piezographer and never had to adjust dot gain 
curves or the transfer curves for my printing - but I only used the 
profiled papers. Clogs became a big problem, so now I'm using 
MIS Variable Mix in with great results.

Best Regards,

John V.

Todd,

The custom curve is to get WYSIWYG inside of Piezo. In theory, you 
should make a seperate curve for each paper/profile combination you 
use.

The procedure is the manual which I believe is available on their 
website.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Forgive me folks, as I don't have the Piezo software I don't have
> instructions for setting up custom dot gain curves, but I'd like to 
learn
> more about them to see how they might benefit my workflow 
(presently MIS
> VM). I looked for info about it on inkjetmall's site but I couldn't 
find it.
> If it isn't a violation of some sort would someone be willing to 
email me
> the directions for setting up the gain curves from your piezo 
instruction
> set?
> 
> Why are custom dot gain curves necessary for Piezo? I am of the 
impression
> that profiles should make dot gain curves unnecessary. Is that 
right? Isn't
> the idea that you are supposed to calibrate your monitor to a 
particular
> standard, and your printer/paper/ink gets profiled to a different 
standard,
> and when both of these devices are each properly calibrated and 
profiled to
> their own standard, the net result is a good match? Thus, where 
does the
> custom dot gain fit in-- is it meant to be in lieu of a properly
> calibrated/profiled monitor, or is it only intended as a stop gap 
measure

> for papers for which you do not have a profile?
> 
> Thanks 
> Todd

> The procedure is the manual which I believe is available on their
> website.

I got it Thanks Martin (thanks John).

 
> The custom curve is to get WYSIWYG inside of Piezo. In theory, you
> should make a seperate curve for each paper/profile combination you
> use.

More questions:

But why is one required? Does Cone make profiles that make prints that match
ICC standards, so that if your monitor is properly profiled, you'll get a
good screen to print match.

Is it that they do, but IF you still don't get an exact match, because your
monitor isn't perfectly profiled, or because each printer and paper batch is
marginally different from another, you can custom tweak it to perfection?

See the distinction? Are you being asked to compensate your monitor because
the profiles miss their mark, or are they providing you with a workaround
for an improperly calibrated/profiled monitor? Do people who have well
calibrated/profiled monitors NOT need custom dot gain curves with Piezo?

Furthermore, are Cone's profiles ICC profiles that are stored in the
Colorsync folder (on a Mac and whatever the equivalent is on a PC)? If so,
why not softproof the image through the profile? I never hear that spoken of
on these lists.

What happens if you are working a grayscale file with a custom dot gain
curve and then convert to RGB--is the dot gain curve somehow carried over
into the RGB screen view?

And what about dot density? I never hear that spoken of on the Piezo list.
From page 29 of the instructions:

"Dot density is used to control the amount of ink put on the media".

Regarding the recent discussion of getting better blacks on Eclipse Satine,
would increasing the dot density be of help there?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:

(snip)
> 
> More questions:
> 
> But why is one required? Does Cone make profiles that make prints 
that match
> ICC standards, so that if your monitor is properly profiled, you'll 
get a
> good screen to print match.

Todd,

The paper profiles are not printer/ink profiles. The paper profile is 
to assure that a 21-step wedge will print the same, or close, on all 
papers. The monitor is not involved which is why you have to eyeball 
a step wedge to make a matching custom grayscale curve.

The paper profiles should allow in theory is that if you tune a print 
for say EAM and then decided to print it on William Turner, switching 
paper profiles would adjust for the change in paper. 
> 
> Is it that they do, but IF you still don't get an exact match, 
because your
> monitor isn't perfectly profiled, or because each printer and paper 
batch is
> marginally different from another, you can custom tweak it to 
perfection?

You can adjust the dot density and the gamma of each profile when you 
export to the Piezo driver.
> 
> See the distinction? Are you being asked to compensate your monitor 
because
> the profiles miss their mark, or are they providing you with a 
workaround
> for an improperly calibrated/profiled monitor? Do people who have 
well
> calibrated/profiled monitors NOT need custom dot gain curves with 
Piezo?

It is a work around but even with a calibrated/profiled monitor you 
would still need the custom curve.

> 
> Furthermore, are Cone's profiles ICC profiles that are stored in the
> Colorsync folder (on a Mac and whatever the equivalent is on a PC)? 
If so,
> why not softproof the image through the profile? I never hear that 
spoken of
> on these lists.

The profiles have nothing to do with ICC profiles nor do they 
interact with Mac or Windows color management systems.
> 
> What happens if you are working a grayscale file with a custom dot 
gain
> curve and then convert to RGB--is the dot gain curve somehow 
carried over
> into the RGB screen view?

Yes and no. The custom curve only defines the grayscale working 
space, but a conversion to RGB should maintain the values.
> 
> And what about dot density? I never hear that spoken of on the 
Piezo list.
> From page 29 of the instructions:
> 
> "Dot density is used to control the amount of ink put on the media".

That is available but rarely used. It is generally easier to just 
tweak your image on screen than to play with profile settings and not 
see the results until you print. I have used this for papers that had 
no good profile match and they are usable.

> 
> Regarding the recent discussion of getting better blacks on Eclipse 
Satine,
> would increasing the dot density be of help there?

In Piezo I used the "Unsupported Profile" with a dot density of 103-
4% and a gamma of .93-.94, but still had mild posterization in some 
tonal ranges.

See what you have been missing!

Martin

on 10/14/01 12:23 AM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> See what you have been missing!

And people bitch about the tweaking we do for MIS VM? ;-)

What do you think is the best way to do a similar thing (custom dot gain)
for RGB images with the MIS VM setup? My system prints good step wedges, but
though my monitor is hardware calibrated, it's way contrastier and brighter
than my prints. What is the best way to mitigate that while I'm quad
printing, without throwing my monitors calibration out of whack on the
whole?

Thanks 
Todd

on 10/14/01 12:09 AM, Todd Flashner at tflash@... wrote:

> But why is one required? Does Cone make profiles that make prints that match
> ICC standards, so that if your monitor is properly profiled, you'll get a
> good screen to print match.

ICC profiles don't apply to grayscale images

-- 
John Brownlow

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com

Todd,

One of the best things you can do in Piezo with unsupported papers is to
print a step wedge with each profile to see which profiles you prefer for
that paper. I would think that is the best starting point, and Nina has
outlined her approach to this in the past. There are probably too many
profiles now to do this with all of them! In this way, you see how certain
profiles will compress or expand certain tonalities on different media... I
personally have never played with the dot-gains and gamma of the Piezo
driver, as I've not felt the need!

In this sense, tweaking the pfoiles with Gamma and Dot-gain is
'experimental' as they say at Cone Editions!

I find, without any special tuning, that the screen gives me a very good
impression of the tonality of my prints (with Piezo) and a well-selected
profile. If I am disappointed with any print, it probably comes down far
more to other issues like how the sharpening looks at a print size... or how
the grain looks when it's enlarged, and so on (I quite like grainy prints in
some situations) but sometimes it 'works' at certain print-sizes and not at
others - which is difficult to visualise when zooming into the image on
screen.

Overall, I have found it far harder (and probably have not resolved!) the
issues of getting a web-image to give the same feel that a print does!

Happy printing!
Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Flashner [mailto:tflash@...]
> Sent: 14 October 2001 06:40
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: custom dot gain curves
>
>
> on 10/14/01 12:23 AM, Martin Wesley wrote:
>
> > See what you have been missing!
>
> And people bitch about the tweaking we do for MIS VM? ;-)
>
> What do you think is the best way to do a similar thing (custom dot gain)
> for RGB images with the MIS VM setup? My system prints good step
> wedges, but
> though my monitor is hardware calibrated, it's way contrastier
> and brighter
> than my prints. What is the best way to mitigate that while I'm quad
> printing, without throwing my monitors calibration out of whack on the
> whole?
>
> Thanks
> Todd

On 10/14/01 6:28 AM, "Nij" <nigel@...> wrote:

> I find, without any special tuning, that the screen gives me a very good
> impression of the tonality of my prints (with Piezo) and a well-selected
> profile. 


Ditto.  The only exception is for papers that have not been profiled by
Cone...live Museo or Eclipse.

Robert

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Why are custom dot gain curves necessary for Piezo?
It only affects the way photoshop sends info to the monitor, it's a 
final fine tune. Once it's done all profiles should work on all 
profiled papers similarly. That's the idea anyway, someone who uses 
Piezo regularly should comment.
It's a good idea. My only problem with it is one would be editing 
files in a custom grayscale space that may wind up irrelevant one day.

snip...Thus, where does the
> custom dot gain fit in--

I think custom dot gain and gamma controls were put there because they 
were easy to put there, and smell suspiciously like "extra features". 
They should have been excluded. Most Piezo users are photographers 
looking for continuous tone reproduction, these controls quickly screw 
it up, and may only be useful for other printing circumstances like 
reproducing pen and ink, or whatever.
Tyler

Todd,

Calibrate your monitor, print a step wedge using the VM curve and 
paper of interest. From that create a custom dot gain curve in colot 
settings and save those overall color settings with a name that will 
allow you to find it easily. When you plan to print using this 
curve/paper combination switch to those saved settings.

When in RGB you can use the custom curve for proof preview also.

I am definately no expert in all the color settings and viewing 
options of Photoshop but if the WYSIWYG work arround works for Piezo 
it should work for MIS VM too.

To get better than this you will need something like Profiler Pro and 
a Spectrocam. Even then, from what Tyler and Dan have reported, some 
tweaking is required. I would like to approach if from that direction 
myself but the cost in $ and time is too high for me right now.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> on 10/14/01 12:23 AM, Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> > See what you have been missing!
> 
> And people bitch about the tweaking we do for MIS VM? ;-)
> 
> What do you think is the best way to do a similar thing (custom dot 
gain)
> for RGB images with the MIS VM setup? My system prints good step 
wedges, but
> though my monitor is hardware calibrated, it's way contrastier and 
brighter
> than my prints. What is the best way to mitigate that while I'm quad
> printing, without throwing my monitors calibration out of whack on 
the

> whole?
> 
> Thanks 
> Todd

> Overall, I have found it far harder (and probably have not resolved!) the
> issues of getting a web-image to give the same feel that a print does!

Ah, now you're talking! Spoken like a TRUE printer. :-)

Todd