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Color film for black and white output?

Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-10 by spersky123

It seems that Black and white film is tough to scan.  Does anyone 
here use color film or color slide film scans with conversion to 
black and white in photoshop for strictly black and white digital 
printing?
is there a loss of quality in the final print when compared to 
traditional black and white film.

I am very close to adopting Mr. Roark's work flow with the UT7 inks 
when they are available.  I am just trying to figure out what film 
(color or Black and White) would give me the best results for general 
Black and White printing.

Thanks

RE: [Digital BW] Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-10 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: spersky123 [mailto:spersky@...]
>
> It seems that Black and white film is tough to scan.  Does anyone
> here use color film or color slide film scans with conversion to
> black and white in photoshop for strictly black and white digital
> printing?
> is there a loss of quality in the final print when compared to
> traditional black and white film.

I've only done a couple shots like that with film and a film scanner, since
I switched to all-digital a few years ago. I can't honestly comment on
whether the results are necessarily better or worse, except for one thing:
with a color source image, you can defer certain filtering effects until the
editing. If you use Photoshop's Channel Mixer, you can even mix in negative
quantities, e.g., 150% red plus -50% blue to get really dark skies.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-10 by Mark Hahn

I have done it a couple times with good results from 100 speed film, 
but while I like the control in converting to b&w I have been more or 
less hooked on T400CN film since it scans so well and is so much 
faster (I have been rating it at 320 though).  The grain is also more 
like a 100-200 speed color film.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. 
DeRocco" <pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: spersky123 [mailto:spersky@s...]
> >
> > It seems that Black and white film is tough to scan.  Does anyone
> > here use color film or color slide film scans with conversion to
> > black and white in photoshop for strictly black and white digital
> > printing?
> > is there a loss of quality in the final print when compared to
> > traditional black and white film.
> 
> I've only done a couple shots like that with film and a film 
scanner, since
> I switched to all-digital a few years ago. I can't honestly comment 
on
> whether the results are necessarily better or worse, except for one 
thing:
> with a color source image, you can defer certain filtering effects 
until the
> editing. If you use Photoshop's Channel Mixer, you can even mix in 
negative
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> quantities, e.g., 150% red plus -50% blue to get really dark skies.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

RE: [Digital BW] Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-10 by Richard Wolfson

I regularly shoot color negative in my 4x5 field camera for b&w
landscapes. The negatives scan well, and as Paul points out, I can use
the Channel Mixer for custom filtering post-shoot. 

On top of that, I can use Select Color Range on the color image to build
alpha-channel masks, then use those later as layer masks with adjustment
layers to make tonal adjustments to the b&w image. You can even employ
the channel mixer as an adjustment layers with a layer mask, and thereby
apply different filters to different parts of an image.

Richard Wolfson
Harvard MA USA
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Paul D. DeRocco [mailto:pderocco@...] 
> 
> > From: spersky123
> >
> > It seems that Black and white film is tough to scan.  Does 
> anyone here 
> > use color film or color slide film scans with conversion to 
> black and 
> > white in photoshop for strictly black and white digital printing?
> > is there a loss of quality in the final print when compared to
> > traditional black and white film.
> 
> I've only done a couple shots like that with film and a film 
> scanner, since I switched to all-digital a few years ago. I 
> can't honestly comment on whether the results are necessarily 
> better or worse, except for one thing: with a color source 
> image, you can defer certain filtering effects until the 
> editing. If you use Photoshop's Channel Mixer, you can even 
> mix in negative quantities, e.g., 150% red plus -50% blue to 
> get really dark skies.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-10 by MartyF2938@aol.com

In a message dated 3/10/2004 8:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
Color film for black and white output?
Actually I regularly scan B&W negatives as if they were color and convert 
later to greyscale. Sometimes I get a beautiful sepia from these scans which I 
keep as RGB.
Marty


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-10 by Kim Fullbrook

Try Ilford XP2 Super which uses C41 colour technology but gives  fine black
& white image on conventional b/w darkroom paper and is very easy to scan.
It lacks the silver on the final neg which confuses many of the automated
dust removal technologies.

Kim.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: spersky123 [mailto:spersky@...] 
Sent: 10 March 2004 03:13
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Color film for black and white output?


It seems that Black and white film is tough to scan.  Does anyone 
here use color film or color slide film scans with conversion to 
black and white in photoshop for strictly black and white digital 
printing?
is there a loss of quality in the final print when compared to 
traditional black and white film.

I am very close to adopting Mr. Roark's work flow with the UT7 inks 
when they are available.  I am just trying to figure out what film 
(color or Black and White) would give me the best results for general 
Black and White printing.

Thanks

Re: [Digital BW] Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-11 by craig

> 
> It seems that Black and white film is tough to scan.  Does anyone 
> here use color film or color slide film scans with conversion to 
> black and white in photoshop for strictly black and white digital 
> printing?
> is there a loss of quality in the final print when compared to 
> traditional black and white film.
> 

I use a Nikon ED4000 scanner which is probably one of the hardest 
scanner around for achieving *good* scans of traditional B&W film due 
to the LED light source being very collminated.

Initially I tried the B&W film scanning and achieved very 
unacceptable results - lacking smooth tones, clumpy obvious grain, 
not even sharp - and, in conjuntion with other various responses I 
came across, began to conclude that (at least for the Nikon scanners) 
B&W film was not a scanning marriage made in heaven. As such I 
resorted to scanning colour print film (looking for the greatest 
exposure lattitude outside of B&W) and I was managing to achieve 
*good* B&W conversions - having colour information is great for tonal 
manipulations. But like many things in life, the more you become 
acustomed to something on a regular basis, that initial shelf-appeal 
that attracted you begins to fade and you begin to look for 
characteristics that offer more substance. This is where I've arrived 
at with colour conversions.

They can still periodically impress me but I really miss be able to 
have the high levels acctuance that traditional B&W film can deliver 
with that midtone *glow* - something that even the C-41 chromogenics 
fail to achieve. Even the expected B&W deep shadow detail and wide 
exposure lattitudes easily become compromised when using a colour-neg 
as a base.

The conclusion I have arrived at from chasing my own tail on this 
point over the last 18 months is that scanned B&W film remains in a 
class of its own. The problem tends to arise when you think of [film] 
as just film, of which you have many choices; [development] as 
development for achieving a neg for the wet darkroom; and [scanning] 
as a process for digitising film.

It can take some experimenting but B&W films need to be matched to a 
developer and development objective (that of being scanned) that 
should almost be considered as part of your digital workflow. For 
example, I find HP5 in Rodinal scans with very ugly grain clumps that 
you can almost count on the monitor when scanned with the Nikon 
ED4000; however, in Tmax developer it scans creamy smooth.

Obviously its all personal in the end but once you realise there are 
a number of non-digital variables involved in achieving a B&W scan 
that need to be tuned (even on the Nikon) I am now of the opinion 
that colour conversions just dont deliver that *traditional* B&W 
tonal quality.

regards
Craig / Beijing

Re: [Digital BW] Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-11 by Ernst Dinkla

Craig wrote:

> It can take some experimenting but B&W films need to be matched to a 
> developer and development objective (that of being scanned) that 
> should almost be considered as part of your digital workflow. For 
> example, I find HP5 in Rodinal scans with very ugly grain clumps that 
> you can almost count on the monitor when scanned with the Nikon 
> ED4000; however, in Tmax developer it scans creamy smooth.

Is that difference of developers expressed in the scan related to 
staining of the emulsion/grain ?

Ernst,

Re: [Digital BW] Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-11 by craig

Ernst,

Not what I 'd call "staining" of the emulsion but differences more in 
terms of a exploiting a developer's specific characteristics of 
acctuance, grain or speed etc; and actual neg development in terms of 
density and contrast to produce a neg that works for your scanner but 
may not possess the preferred qualities that you might desire if it 
were destined for the enlarger instead.

Craig / Beijing
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Is that difference of developers expressed in the scan related to 
> staining of the emulsion/grain ?
> 
> Ernst,

Re: Color film for black and white output?

2004-03-11 by digikdm

I keep color film in my camera at all times, so that if I encounter a 
scene that only color film can do justice to, I'm not stuck with a 
B&W roll in the camera. That being said, most of my ouput is B&W, and 
I use the PS channel mixer for the color/B&W conversion.I have 
scanned both B&W as well as color film in the past, and the eventual 
output in the end is identical to my eye.So to answer your question, 
I don't think you are sacrificing anything by shooting color and 
converting to B&W.If anything, you're gaining the advantage of adding 
filters in the channel mixer.
K. Monroe








--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "spersky123" 
<spersky@s...> wrote:
> It seems that Black and white film is tough to scan.  Does anyone 
> here use color film or color slide film scans with conversion to 
> black and white in photoshop for strictly black and white digital 
> printing?
> is there a loss of quality in the final print when compared to 
> traditional black and white film.
> 
> I am very close to adopting Mr. Roark's work flow with the UT7 inks 
> when they are available.  I am just trying to figure out what film 
> (color or Black and White) would give me the best results for 
general 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Black and White printing.
> 
> Thanks

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