Digital BW, The Print

Hello,

I just received the new photo papers I ordered. Here is what I found 
based on one great Landscape scan from my Leica M7.

1) Epson Velvet fine art 13x19: Awsome paper nice warm cast. 
Definately adds a depth an quality to the print.  I will continue to 
use it.  Great when you want to add just a slight touch of warmth to 
the picture with BO eboni black printing.

2) H. photo rag 308 13x19: Great texture and depth.  Hard to tell the 
print apart from the epson velvet fine art.  Will likely not order 
again because it is the most expensive, and I had rouble seeing thed 
difference from epson velvet fine art. It is ever so slightly less 
warm.

3) Hawk Mountain BW 13x19: Awsome paper. It is very white and clean.  
The image just stands out.  It will give your print an almost cool 
carbon look to it.  The blacks are pure.  I highly recommend it and I 
plan to use it. You must try this paper.

4) Hawk Mountain Merlin Smooth:  I fine this and in between paper. It 
has the same texture of the Hawk Mountain Condor.  It will probably 
my best all around paper.


Keep in mind my sample print was a Landscape Photo.  I can see my 
paper requiments change with different types of pictures.  The final 
print I chose for framing was on epson velvet fine art for this print 
because of the slight warmth that the paper brought to the image.

The only time I had to change the back end profile curve in photoshop 
was on Hawk Mountain BW.  The midtones where just a little light 
because the paper was so white. I had to darken it just a touch by 2%.

Overall, it was a fun experiment.  I recommend you try these papers. 
I plan to use them in the future.  The ones I can see using most are 
the epson velvet fine art and the Hawk Mountain Papers.

Btw, Hawk Mountain Sent me a swatch with every single paper, and you 
can tell they really care about the quality of their product.

I think the Hahnemühle Photo Rag did not display greater Dmax then 
the Hawk Mountain papers.

I would like to thank Clayton Jones for pointing me in the right 
direction with these papers.

Btw, the 4 people who requested photos from me of that sample BO 
landscape picture.  I printed them on EEM as a sample of what BO can 
do.  I did not have my fancy papers in yet:)  If you really like the 
print on eem, I will send you a final copy for framing with the epson 
velvet fine art. Just drop me an email.

Thanks,
Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "spersky123" 
<spersky@s...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I just received the new photo papers I ordered. Here is what I 
found 
> based on one great Landscape scan from my Leica M7.
> 
> 1) Epson Velvet fine art 13x19: Awsome paper nice warm cast. 
> Definately adds a depth an quality to the print.  I will continue 
to 
> use it.  Great when you want to add just a slight touch of warmth 
to 
> the picture with BO eboni black printing.
> 
> 2) H. photo rag 308 13x19: Great texture and depth.  Hard to tell 
the 
> print apart from the epson velvet fine art.  Will likely not order 
> again because it is the most expensive, and I had rouble seeing 
thed 
> difference from epson velvet fine art. It is ever so slightly less 
> warm.
> 
> 3) Hawk Mountain BW 13x19: Awsome paper. It is very white and 
clean.  
> The image just stands out.  It will give your print an almost cool 
> carbon look to it.  The blacks are pure.  I highly recommend it 
and I 
> plan to use it. You must try this paper.
> 
Steve,

Thanks for your review. I went onto the Hawk Mountain site and could 
not find a paper called BW. Does it have another name or didn't I 
look long enough?

Best, Jim Weekes

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "spersky123"
<spersky@s...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I just received the new photo papers I ordered. Here is what I found 
> based on one great Landscape scan from my Leica M7.
> 
> 1) Epson Velvet fine art 13x19: Awsome paper nice warm cast. 
black printing.
> 
> 2) H. photo rag 308 13x19: Great texture and depth.  Hard to tell the 
> p
> 
> 3) Hawk Mountain BW 13x19: Awsome paper. It is very white and clean.  
> The image just stands out.  It will give your print an almost cool 
> carbon look to it.  
> 4) Hawk Mountain Merlin Smooth:  I fine this and in between paper. It 
> has the same texture of the Hawk Mountain Condor.  It will probably 
> my best all around paper.
> 

> 
> Overall, it was a fun experiment.  I recommend you try these papers. 
> I plan to use them in the future.  The ones I can see using most are 
> the epson velvet fine art and the Hawk Mountain Papers.
> Steve


Steve,
Thanks for this interesting report.  Did you order all these papers
from the same vendor or did you have to go to different ones?  Also,
is Hawk Mountain paper available in sizes smaller than 13x19? Just
wondering....

Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

> Steve,
> Thanks for this interesting report.  Did you order all these papers
> from the same vendor or did you have to go to different ones?  Also,
> is Hawk Mountain paper available in sizes smaller than 13x19? Just
> wondering....
> 
> Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

Hello,

I ordered the H. Photo Rag and epson velvet fine art from 
inkjetart.com. They even had free shipping.   I ordered the 
HawkMountain papers from Hawk Mountaion website.

Here is the link to the different types of papers and the sizes from 
Hawk Mountain.
http://www.hawkmtnartpapers.com/fineart.htm

The Condor BW paper is there (BW stands for Bright White). I think 
the smallest I saw it available was in 13x19.

Good Luck,
Steve

Hello Steve,

Thanks for the report.  You sound like a happy camper <g>.


>1) Epson Velvet fine art 13x19: Awsome paper 

It does have an incredible richness and depth.  Amazing stuff.


>2) H. photo rag 308 13x19: Great texture and depth.  Hard to tell
>the print apart from the epson velvet fine art.  Will likely not 
>order again because it is the most expensive, and I had trouble 
>seeing the difference from epson velvet fine art. It is ever so
>slightly less warm.

Perhaps I'm over-sensitized from too much looking, but I see quite a
difference between them, and not just being warmer.  VFA has a texture
to it and takes the ink dots differently - PR has smoother mid tones.
I'm keeping PR in my arsenal for now until I find something to replace
it.  Right now there's nothing else quite like it.


>4) Hawk Mountain Merlin Smooth:  It will probably be my best all 
>around paper.

Same here.  Great stuff.


>I think the Hahnemühle Photo Rag did not display greater Dmax
>then the Hawk Mountain papers.

I have examined carefully for this since reading Paul Roark's
densitometer figures.  I forget the actual numbers, but the Dmax of
these papers is excellent, and on prints with small or broken up areas
of black it looks just as good.  However, one of my test prints has a
large solid black background and when comparing these prints the
greater Dmax on PR can be seen.  But it's an unhappy photographer who
lives purely the numbers.  These papers are excellent - contrasty and
punchy - and prints on them can hold up against PR or any of the
others.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I'm always happy when someone else confirms my findings.  Epson Velvet 
Fine Art is the best paper for exhibition and portfolio printing.  When sli=
ghtly 
less texture and warmth is required, H. Photo Rag is perfect.  When slightl=
y 
more tooth is desired, H. William Turner is heaven to the touch.  

The link to Hawk Mountain is really the added bonus to your comparisons.  
I've been searching for a quality paper for less money and HM's product 
seems to be almost half the price.  I'm looking forward to trying them.

Speaking of price, EVFA can be bought at 
http://www.atlex.com 
for considerably less than inkjetart. 
http://www.mediastreet.com
has Hahnemuhle under its own name for slightly less money.
Royal Renaissance is HPR and Royal Jazz is HWT.
You folks probably already know that.

Frank

http://www.photoeye.com/gallery/forms/index.cfm?image=1&id=46924&
imagePosition=1&Door=2&Portfolio=Portfolio1&Gallery=2



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <
cj@c...> wrote:

> Hello Steve,
> 
> Thanks for the report.  You sound like a happy camper <g>.
> 
> 
> >1) Epson Velvet fine art 13x19: Awsome paper 
> 
> It does have an incredible richness and depth.  Amazing stuff.
> 
> 
> >2) H. photo rag 308 13x19: Great texture and depth.  Hard to tell
> >the print apart from the epson velvet fine art.  Will likely not 
> >order again because it is the most expensive, and I had trouble 
> >seeing the difference from epson velvet fine art. It is ever so
> >slightly less warm.
> 
> Perhaps I'm over-sensitized from too much looking, but I see quite a
> difference between them, and not just being warmer.  VFA has a texture
> to it and takes the ink dots differently - PR has smoother mid tones.
> I'm keeping PR in my arsenal for now until I find something to replace
> it.  Right now there's nothing else quite like it.
> 
> 
> >4) Hawk Mountain Merlin Smooth:  It will probably be my best all 
> >around paper.
> 
> Same here.  Great stuff.
> 
> 
> >I think the Hahnemühle Photo Rag did not display greater Dmax
> >then the Hawk Mountain papers.
> 
> I have examined carefully for this since reading Paul Roark's
> densitometer figures.  I forget the actual numbers, but the Dmax of
> these papers is excellent, and on prints with small or broken up areas
> of black it looks just as good.  However, one of my test prints has a
> large solid black background and when comparing these prints the
> greater Dmax on PR can be seen.  But it's an unhappy photographer who
> lives purely the numbers.  These papers are excellent - contrasty and
> punchy - and prints on them can hold up against PR or any of the
> others.
> 
> Keep up the good work.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Frank, I hate to take issue with you, but I agree and disagree. Velvet
Fine Art, in all it's incarnations, is probably the most tested and
wrangled with paper by some of us since we began inkjet printing.
Somerset Velvet was the most workable before coated papers came along.
Somerset Enhanced was the first usable coated paper after some Liege
paper that had the longevity of an ant. These papers still have my
admiration because of their beautiful surfaces. EVFA is rebranded
Somerset Enhanced. Unfortunately, they do not have the dmax of the H
papers, and tend to have mottle problems with certain ink loads. With
many images, without a side by side comparison, these issues may fade
to irrelevance, particularly given the beautiful surface.
Though PhotoRag outperforms Velvet in these ways, it's surface is too
card like for me.
I agree that William Turner is gorgeous, not as brightened as
PhotoRag, performs as well or better than all the others, and is my
paper of choice. A nationally well know photographer was in here
having us print for him the other day and wound up selecting WT,
suprised to see that the tooth did not take away from image sharpness
as he had assumed anything but a smooth surface would do. Many
photographers autiomatically select smooth surfaces because of
presumptions about how a photograph should look, rather than actually
looking at the papers and prints as something new.
If only it's surface had the more supple tooth of Velvet, I'd be a
happy camper.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "culturalvisions"
<fmward@h...> wrote:
> I'm always happy when someone else confirms my findings.  Epson Velvet 
> Fine Art is the best paper for exhibition and portfolio printing. 
When sli=
> ghtly 
> less texture and warmth is required, H. Photo Rag is perfect.  When
slightl=
> y 
> more tooth is desired, H. William Turner is heaven to the touch.  
> 
> The link to Hawk Mountain is really the added bonus to your
comparisons.  

> I've been searching for a quality paper for less money and HM's product 
> seems to be almost half the price.  I'm looking forward to trying them.
> 
> Speaking of price, EVFA can be bought at 
> http://www.atlex.com 
> for considerably less than inkjetart. 
> http://www.mediastreet.com
> has Hahnemuhle under its own name for slightly less money.
> Royal Renaissance is HPR and Royal Jazz is HWT.
> You folks probably already know that.
> 
> Frank
> 
> http://www.photoeye.com/gallery/forms/index.cfm?image=1&id=46924&
> imagePosition=1&Door=2&Portfolio=Portfolio1&Gallery=2
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <
> cj@c...> wrote:
> > Hello Steve,
> > 
> > Thanks for the report.  You sound like a happy camper <g>.
> > 
> > 
> > >1) Epson Velvet fine art 13x19: Awsome paper 
> > 
> > It does have an incredible richness and depth.  Amazing stuff.
> > 
> > 
> > >2) H. photo rag 308 13x19: Great texture and depth.  Hard to tell
> > >the print apart from the epson velvet fine art.  Will likely not 
> > >order again because it is the most expensive, and I had trouble 
> > >seeing the difference from epson velvet fine art. It is ever so
> > >slightly less warm.
> > 
> > Perhaps I'm over-sensitized from too much looking, but I see quite a
> > difference between them, and not just being warmer.  VFA has a texture
> > to it and takes the ink dots differently - PR has smoother mid tones.
> > I'm keeping PR in my arsenal for now until I find something to replace
> > it.  Right now there's nothing else quite like it.
> > 
> > 
> > >4) Hawk Mountain Merlin Smooth:  It will probably be my best all 
> > >around paper.
> > 
> > Same here.  Great stuff.
> > 
> > 
> > >I think the Hahnemühle Photo Rag did not display greater Dmax
> > >then the Hawk Mountain papers.
> > 
> > I have examined carefully for this since reading Paul Roark's
> > densitometer figures.  I forget the actual numbers, but the Dmax of
> > these papers is excellent, and on prints with small or broken up areas
> > of black it looks just as good.  However, one of my test prints has a
> > large solid black background and when comparing these prints the
> > greater Dmax on PR can be seen.  But it's an unhappy photographer who
> > lives purely the numbers.  These papers are excellent - contrasty and
> > punchy - and prints on them can hold up against PR or any of the
> > others.
> > 
> > Keep up the good work.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Brilliant report, thanks Steve.  I look forward to seeing your 
print.  I have been starting my own investigation into the various 
options and have been able to compare the following :


1. Ultratone
2. Ultratone 2
3. Eboni black only
(all the above on a 1290)
4. Epson 4000 Ultrachrome (profiled output)
5. Epson 4000 Ultrachrome (driver output)
6. Epson 4000 PK only
7. Epson 4000 K only.

I will write up my findings later, but so far I am amazed that the 
BO is coming out on top.....

Steve



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "spersky123" 
<spersky@s...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I just received the new photo papers I ordered. Here is what I 
found 
> based on one great Landscape scan from my Leica M7.
> 
> 1) Epson Velvet fine art 13x19: Awsome paper nice warm cast. 
> Definately adds a depth an quality to the print.  I will continue 
to 
> use it.  Great when you want to add just a slight touch of warmth 
to 
> the picture with BO eboni black printing.
> 
> 2) H. photo rag 308 13x19: Great texture and depth.  Hard to tell 
the 
> print apart from the epson velvet fine art.  Will likely not order 
> again because it is the most expensive, and I had rouble seeing 
thed 
> difference from epson velvet fine art. It is ever so slightly less 
> warm.
> 
> 3) Hawk Mountain BW 13x19: Awsome paper. It is very white and 
clean.  
> The image just stands out.  It will give your print an almost cool 
> carbon look to it.  The blacks are pure.  I highly recommend it 
and I 
> plan to use it. You must try this paper.
> 
> 4) Hawk Mountain Merlin Smooth:  I fine this and in between paper. 
It 
> has the same texture of the Hawk Mountain Condor.  It will 
probably 
> my best all around paper.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind my sample print was a Landscape Photo.  I can see my 
> paper requiments change with different types of pictures.  The 
final 
> print I chose for framing was on epson velvet fine art for this 
print 
> because of the slight warmth that the paper brought to the image.
> 
> The only time I had to change the back end profile curve in 
photoshop 
> was on Hawk Mountain BW.  The midtones where just a little light 
> because the paper was so white. I had to darken it just a touch by 
2%.
> 
> Overall, it was a fun experiment.  I recommend you try these 
papers. 
> I plan to use them in the future.  The ones I can see using most 
are 
> the epson velvet fine art and the Hawk Mountain Papers.
> 
> Btw, Hawk Mountain Sent me a swatch with every single paper, and 
you 
> can tell they really care about the quality of their product.
> 
> I think the Hahnemühle Photo Rag did not display greater Dmax then 
> the Hawk Mountain papers.
> 
> I would like to thank Clayton Jones for pointing me in the right 
> direction with these papers.
> 
> Btw, the 4 people who requested photos from me of that sample BO 
> landscape picture.  I printed them on EEM as a sample of what BO 
can 
> do.  I did not have my fancy papers in yet:)  If you really like 
the 
> print on eem, I will send you a final copy for framing with the 
epson 

> velvet fine art. Just drop me an email.
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve

Tyler, I've been getting very good blacks with the Epson Velvet FA paper an=
d 
Ultrachrome Epson ink when printing in color.  Using Quadtone Rip for b/w i=
s 
a bit less successful in the blacks.  I probably have to mess with the curv=
es a 
bit, because, otherwise, the QTR is excellent.  If the William Turner paper=
 had 
a less fragile surface, I'd use it all the time.  It is a pain to sweep the=
 surface 
before printing and then bag the print as soon as it dries.

Thanks for giving me the info on Somerset Enhanced.  I was trying to recall=
 if it 
was the same as EVFA.

Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <
tyler@t...> wrote:
> Frank, I hate to take issue with you, but I agree and disagree. Velvet
> Fine Art, in all it's incarnations, is probably the most tested and
> wrangled with paper by some of us since we began inkjet printing.
> Somerset Velvet was the most workable before coated papers came along.
> Somerset Enhanced was the first usable coated paper after some Liege
> paper that had the longevity of an ant. These papers still have my
> admiration because of their beautiful surfaces. EVFA is rebranded
> Somerset Enhanced. Unfortunately, they do not have the dmax of the H
> papers, and tend to have mottle problems with certain ink loads. With
> many images, without a side by side comparison, these issues may fade
> to irrelevance, particularly given the beautiful surface.
> Though PhotoRag outperforms Velvet in these ways, it's surface is too
> card like for me.
> I agree that William Turner is gorgeous, not as brightened as
> PhotoRag, performs as well or better than all the others, and is my
> paper of choice. A nationally well know photographer was in here
> having us print for him the other day and wound up selecting WT,
> suprised to see that the tooth did not take away from image sharpness
> as he had assumed anything but a smooth surface would do. Many
> photographers autiomatically select smooth surfaces because of
> presumptions about how a photograph should look, rather than actually
> looking at the papers and prints as something new.
> If only it's surface had the more supple tooth of Velvet, I'd be a
> happy camper.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "culturalvisions"
> <fmward@h...> wrote:
> > I'm always happy when someone else confirms my findings.  Epson Velvet =

> > Fine Art is the best paper for exhibition and portfolio printing. 
> When sli=
> > ghtly 
> > less texture and warmth is required, H. Photo Rag is perfect.  When
> slightl=
> > y 
> > more tooth is desired, H. William Turner is heaven to the touch.  
> > 
> > The link to Hawk Mountain is really the added bonus to your
> comparisons.  
> > I've been searching for a quality paper for less money and HM's product=
 
> > seems to be almost half the price.  I'm looking forward to trying them.=

> > 
> > Speaking of price, EVFA can be bought at 
> > http://www.atlex.com 
> > for considerably less than inkjetart. 
> > http://www.mediastreet.com
> > has Hahnemuhle under its own name for slightly less money.
> > Royal Renaissance is HPR and Royal Jazz is HWT.
> > You folks probably already know that.
> > 
> > Frank
> > 
> > http://www.photoeye.com/gallery/forms/index.cfm?image=1&id=46924&
> > imagePosition=1&Door=2&Portfolio=Portfolio1&Gallery=2
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<
> > cj@c...> wrote:
> > > Hello Steve,
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the report.  You sound like a happy camper <g>.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >1) Epson Velvet fine art 13x19: Awsome paper 
> > > 
> > > It does have an incredible richness and depth.  Amazing stuff.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >2) H. photo rag 308 13x19: Great texture and depth.  Hard to tell
> > > >the print apart from the epson velvet fine art.  Will likely not 
> > > >order again because it is the most expensive, and I had trouble 
> > > >seeing the difference from epson velvet fine art. It is ever so
> > > >slightly less warm.
> > > 
> > > Perhaps I'm over-sensitized from too much looking, but I see quite a
> > > difference between them, and not just being warmer.  VFA has a textur=
e
> > > to it and takes the ink dots differently - PR has smoother mid tones.=

> > > I'm keeping PR in my arsenal for now until I find something to replac=
e
> > > it.  Right now there's nothing else quite like it.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >4) Hawk Mountain Merlin Smooth:  It will probably be my best all 
> > > >around paper.
> > > 
> > > Same here.  Great stuff.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >I think the Hahnemühle Photo Rag did not display greater Dmax
> > > >then the Hawk Mountain papers.
> > > 
> > > I have examined carefully for this since reading Paul Roark's
> > > densitometer figures.  I forget the actual numbers, but the Dmax of
> > > these papers is excellent, and on prints with small or broken up area=
s
> > > of black it looks just as good.  However, one of my test prints has a=

> > > large solid black background and when comparing these prints the
> > > greater Dmax on PR can be seen.  But it's an unhappy photographer 
who

> > > lives purely the numbers.  These papers are excellent - contrasty and=

> > > punchy - and prints on them can hold up against PR or any of the
> > > others.
> > > 
> > > Keep up the good work.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Clayton
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "culturalvisions"
<fmward@h...> wrote:
> Tyler, I've been getting very good blacks with the Epson Velvet FA
paper an=
> d 
> Ultrachrome Epson ink when printing in color...

some of the prints I've been attracted to the most on that paper have
been color, really nice. You might run the QTR dmax by Roy, he may
have some suggestions.
Tyler

San Francisco Bay area folks may want to check out the listing at 
craigslist:

http://www.craigslist.org/sys/29648965.html

-matt
--
Matt Haber
dance, portrait and fashion photography
http://www.matthaber.com