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QuadTone RIP blending or custom curves for most "neutrality"

QuadTone RIP blending or custom curves for most "neutrality"

2004-04-15 by chipcarterdc

Just started running Roy Harrington's QuadTone RIP 2.0 (QTR) on my 9600 
and am pretty impressed thus far.  However, when looking at the curve 
choices, I noticed that you have the following tone choices:  Sepia, Cool, 
CoolSe (Selenium, I assume) and Warm.  None of these is labeled "neutral", 
and that is accurate.  I quite like the CoolSe curve, and will likely continue 
using that.  But it is not "neutral" -- it has the look of a lightly selenium toned 
print.  The "Cool" curve, as its name indicates, isn't "neutral" either -- it's got 
the look of a cool tone wet darkroom paper.

What I'm wondering is if anyone has come up with a QTR custom curve that 
produces a neutral grayscale print?  (By the way, I'm making my judgments on 
neutrality by holding the prints next to a wet darkroom print of the same image 
on Ilford Multigrade).  Or a combination of curves via the QTR blending option 
that produces neutral grayscale prints?  I'll reiterate that I quite like the CoolSe 
curve, but there are times (like in the wet darkroom) where I won't want the 
slight purplishness of a selenium toned print.  This is not at all to bash QTR, 
but ImagePrint, for example, when the Tint Picker is set to neutral, produces a 
print that is a bit cooler than the QTR CoolSe selection, yet without the coldish 
tone of QTR's Cool selection, and therefore closer to what I consider "neutral."  
I'm assuming that the same thing is possible with QTR's ability to create or 
blend curves, but if someone else has figured it out, I'd appreciate the benefit 
of your experience.

(All prints mentioned above were on Epson Enhanced Matte -- if the inherent 
tone of the paper has a significant impact on what I'm seeing (e.g., with 
Ultrasmooth, the CoolSe curve looks significantly different), please let me 
know)

By the way: regardless of whether I ultimately stick with QTR, I'll be sending 
Roy the $50 shareware fee as soon as I get a chance -- it's an amazing piece 
of work that those of us with the $ to do so should support.

Re: [Digital BW] QuadTone RIP blending or custom curves for most "neutrality"

2004-04-15 by Steve Kale

Chip 

The curves have not been designed so that one produces a dead neutral print
although there is nothing stopping someone with a photospectrometer from
designing a curve that does just that.  I have a 2100 and have typically
used Carl¹s curves 50:50 warm:cold as a starting point.  I would suggest
starting at this ratio and tweaking to suit.

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:22:40 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] QuadTone RIP blending or custom curves for most
"neutrality"

Just started running Roy Harrington's QuadTone RIP 2.0 (QTR) on my 9600
and am pretty impressed thus far.  However, when looking at the curve
choices, I noticed that you have the following tone choices:  Sepia, Cool,
CoolSe (Selenium, I assume) and Warm.  None of these is labeled "neutral",
and that is accurate.  I quite like the CoolSe curve, and will likely
continue 
using that.  But it is not "neutral" -- it has the look of a lightly
selenium toned 
print.  The "Cool" curve, as its name indicates, isn't "neutral" either --
it's got 
the look of a cool tone wet darkroom paper.

What I'm wondering is if anyone has come up with a QTR custom curve that
produces a neutral grayscale print?  (By the way, I'm making my judgments on
neutrality by holding the prints next to a wet darkroom print of the same
image 
on Ilford Multigrade).  Or a combination of curves via the QTR blending
option 
that produces neutral grayscale prints?  I'll reiterate that I quite like
the CoolSe 
curve, but there are times (like in the wet darkroom) where I won't want the
slight purplishness of a selenium toned print.  This is not at all to bash
QTR, 
but ImagePrint, for example, when the Tint Picker is set to neutral,
produces a 
print that is a bit cooler than the QTR CoolSe selection, yet without the
coldish 
tone of QTR's Cool selection, and therefore closer to what I consider
"neutral."  
I'm assuming that the same thing is possible with QTR's ability to create or
blend curves, but if someone else has figured it out, I'd appreciate the
benefit 
of your experience.

(All prints mentioned above were on Epson Enhanced Matte -- if the inherent
tone of the paper has a significant impact on what I'm seeing (e.g., with
Ultrasmooth, the CoolSe curve looks significantly different), please let me
know)

By the way: regardless of whether I ultimately stick with QTR, I'll be
sending 
Roy the $50 shareware fee as soon as I get a chance -- it's an amazing piece
of work that those of us with the $ to do so should support.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] QuadTone RIP blending or custom curves for most "neutrality"

2004-04-15 by chipcarterdc

Thanks.  Are Carl's curves different from the curves I downloaded from Roy's 
site and, if so, where do I find them?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <
stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Chip 
> 
> The curves have not been designed so that one produces a dead neutral 
print
> although there is nothing stopping someone with a photospectrometer from
> designing a curve that does just that.  I have a 2100 and have typically
> used Carl1s curves 50:50 warm:cold as a starting point.  I would suggest
> starting at this ratio and tweaking to suit.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@h...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:22:40 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] QuadTone RIP blending or custom curves for most
> "neutrality"
> 
> Just started running Roy Harrington's QuadTone RIP 2.0 (QTR) on my 9600
> and am pretty impressed thus far.  However, when looking at the curve
> choices, I noticed that you have the following tone choices:  Sepia, Cool,
> CoolSe (Selenium, I assume) and Warm.  None of these is labeled "neutral",
> and that is accurate.  I quite like the CoolSe curve, and will likely
> continue 
> using that.  But it is not "neutral" -- it has the look of a lightly
> selenium toned 
> print.  The "Cool" curve, as its name indicates, isn't "neutral" either --
> it's got 
> the look of a cool tone wet darkroom paper.
> 
> What I'm wondering is if anyone has come up with a QTR custom curve that
> produces a neutral grayscale print?  (By the way, I'm making my judgments 
on
> neutrality by holding the prints next to a wet darkroom print of the same
> image 
> on Ilford Multigrade).  Or a combination of curves via the QTR blending
> option 
> that produces neutral grayscale prints?  I'll reiterate that I quite like
> the CoolSe 
> curve, but there are times (like in the wet darkroom) where I won't want the
> slight purplishness of a selenium toned print.  This is not at all to bash
> QTR, 
> but ImagePrint, for example, when the Tint Picker is set to neutral,
> produces a 
> print that is a bit cooler than the QTR CoolSe selection, yet without the
> coldish 
> tone of QTR's Cool selection, and therefore closer to what I consider
> "neutral."  
> I'm assuming that the same thing is possible with QTR's ability to create or
> blend curves, but if someone else has figured it out, I'd appreciate the
> benefit 
> of your experience.
> 
> (All prints mentioned above were on Epson Enhanced Matte -- if the 
inherent
> tone of the paper has a significant impact on what I'm seeing (e.g., with
> Ultrasmooth, the CoolSe curve looks significantly different), please let me
> know)
> 
> By the way: regardless of whether I ultimately stick with QTR, I'll be
> sending 
> Roy the $50 shareware fee as soon as I get a chance -- it's an amazing 
piece
> of work that those of us with the $ to do so should support.
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL 
NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  
"OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR 
THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS 
OR CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> *  
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Uns
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> ubscribe> 
> *  
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] QuadTone RIP blending or custom curves for most "neutrality"

2004-04-15 by Steve Kale

Carl did the curves for the 2100/2200.  I am not sure who did the curves for
the 9600 (Roy?).  Unfortunately finding neutral is a bit of trial and error.
This was a topic of discussion some months ago when I asked what is the
definition of neutral and if it can be measured then why not produce a
neutral curve (essentially your question)?  You might want to do a quick
search through the archives and find the discussion.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:13:47 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QuadTone RIP blending or custom curves for most
"neutrality"

Thanks.  Are Carl's curves different from the curves I downloaded from Roy's
site and, if so, where do I find them?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: QuadTone RIP blending or custom curves for most "neutrality"

2004-04-15 by Roy Harrington

Hi Chip,

The idea with the four profiles is to span the tones that different people
will like.  The way I like to think about it is the "warm" curve is pure carbon
pigment and the center of the tones.  Cool goes off toward the cold tone
direction, CoolSe is similar but with a hint more magenta, Sepia is
way off in the very warm direction.  It a little like the ImagePrint tone
picker but the end points are more oriented to desirable tones.

Anyway, you should be doing Blending of two profiles to pick tones that
are between two extremes.   Neutral is somewhat in the eye of the
holder so you should definitely experiment to get what you like.  My
preferences are about 70 to 85% coolse or cool blended with warm.
This gets it just a touch on the warmish side of neutral.

Another important consideration is which paper you use, EEM is quite
cold, Photo Rag near neutral and UltraSmooth is warm.  In general the
highlights are dominated by the paper tone and the midtones are
dominated by the ink/profile tone.  So my ideal is to lean the profile
tone in the same direction as the paper tone -- cooler with cool paper
and warmer with warm paper.  

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Just started running Roy Harrington's QuadTone RIP 2.0 (QTR) on my 9600 
> and am pretty impressed thus far.  However, when looking at the curve 
> choices, I noticed that you have the following tone choices:  Sepia, Cool, 
> CoolSe (Selenium, I assume) and Warm.  None of these is labeled "neutral", 
> and that is accurate.  I quite like the CoolSe curve, and will likely continue 
> using that.  But it is not "neutral" -- it has the look of a lightly selenium toned 
> print.  The "Cool" curve, as its name indicates, isn't "neutral" either -- it's got 
> the look of a cool tone wet darkroom paper.
> 
> What I'm wondering is if anyone has come up with a QTR custom curve that 
> produces a neutral grayscale print?  (By the way, I'm making my judgments on 
> neutrality by holding the prints next to a wet darkroom print of the same image 
> on Ilford Multigrade).  Or a combination of curves via the QTR blending option 
> that produces neutral grayscale prints?  I'll reiterate that I quite like the CoolSe 
> curve, but there are times (like in the wet darkroom) where I won't want the 
> slight purplishness of a selenium toned print.  This is not at all to bash QTR, 
> but ImagePrint, for example, when the Tint Picker is set to neutral, produces a 
> print that is a bit cooler than the QTR CoolSe selection, yet without the coldish 
> tone of QTR's Cool selection, and therefore closer to what I consider "neutral."  
> I'm assuming that the same thing is possible with QTR's ability to create or 
> blend curves, but if someone else has figured it out, I'd appreciate the benefit 
> of your experience.
> 
> (All prints mentioned above were on Epson Enhanced Matte -- if the inherent 
> tone of the paper has a significant impact on what I'm seeing (e.g., with 
> Ultrasmooth, the CoolSe curve looks significantly different), please let me 
> know)
> 
> By the way: regardless of whether I ultimately stick with QTR, I'll be sending 
> Roy the $50 shareware fee as soon as I get a chance -- it's an amazing piece 
> of work that those of us with the $ to do so should support.

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