Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Serious quadtone BW printing(some thoughts from the last 6 years)

Serious quadtone BW printing(some thoughts from the last 6 years)

2004-04-16 by sdmey4@aol.com

I've been swamping out my work area and throwing out prints from the last 6 
years. 3 or 4 generations of black and white digital materials and prints. I 
have prints from a dozen workflows and members of this list over the years since 
its inseption. 
Some Comments and observations: 
1. If your using color inks and or toner inks you will get dots no matter 
what printer or work flow you use. This includes the 1160,1280,2200,7600,9600 and 
everything in between. I can add that you will need an 8x loupe in some cases 
to see them but they are there. I'm talking about Rourke curves, Quadtone Rip 
(QTR), I proof power rip, IP5 image print rip, Brandin/wolfe/randall 
workflows, BO printing, custom profiles to neutralize color inks(all of them)
I'm not particulaly picky about dots that can't be seen without a loupe, but 
I'm glad I don't have them, as at my most recent exhibit opening A well known 
large format Silver printer was going over my hung pieces with a loupe looking 
for dots.
I guess I thought since the original piezo plugin that we where all dotless 
now and that properly partitioned quads where a common place with all the 
workflows and rips, but this is not the case with a large percentage of the users 
of this list working with ultrachrome inks or varible tone quad and hex sets of 
 inks. These efforts remind me of the time and materials wasted 5 years ago. 
People get away with it now because of the smaller drop sizes in the mordern 
epson printers.
My point is for under 4000.00 you can have state of the art quadtone BW 
printing, 24inches, no dots even with a loupe,some tint control, any quadtone inks 
you want, no fuss, no muss. How?
Buy a used or refurb 7000/7500 and Egosofts Studio print software and 
Greytag's EyeOne Photospectrometer. For a little more you can have a 9000/9500 44inch 
set up.
I did say for serious quadtone printing :) In general the epson prosumer 
desktops(1160,1280,2200) are short term machines. That need to tweaked and 
serviced constatntly for BW printing as evidenced on this list.
With the masses buying 7600/9600's there are 7000' and 9000's available 
cheap! 1000.00 and 2000.00 easily. About what you would pay for the new 4000.(hey,I 
want one too)
Think about this too. No chipped carts to deal with in these models, 9000 
220ml carts will fit in both, so no CIS headaches, Easy to load yourself) 
reliable paper transport, even very, very thick papers, and for a technical inclinded 
person they are relatively easy to work on. Head replacements by the user can 
be done for 150.00(I haven't done this, but will some day)
Look this list over and see the frustration with cloggs, paper transport 
issues, CIS woes, metamerizm complaints, dots, shadows blocking, curves unavailble 
and on and on. You might save youself lots of dollars and grief simply by 
using a more pro qaulity
printer like epson's first ones the 7000/7500 and 9000/9500 and dedicate it 
to BW. Most of the headaches on this list come from color inks or trying to get 
by cheap and in the end most of you will spend close to the state of the art 
System I described.
Oops!  forgot that Studio Print needs a PC,  But think about it  if your 
serious, and I do realize the budget around here is under 2 k for everything but 
you get what you pay for.
Are your scans good enough for the highres dotless prints you will get? 
Get a 7000-9000 epson while you can, These can be ultra pro quad printers 
that can only be beat by th x600 7 ink wide format printers have have that extra 
cart for more tone variety.I don't mean varible tone either, just different 
tones. Vari toner workflows will have dots. But these(7600/9600's )will cost 
alot more and have there own set of headaches to deal with. 

My ramble for the month,
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Serious quadtone BW printing(some thoughts from the last 6 years)

2004-04-16 by jim hayes

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... wrote:
<snip>

> 1. If your using color inks and or toner inks you will get dots no
matter 
> what printer or work flow you use.

 <snip>

> I'm not particulaly picky about dots that can't be seen without a
loupe, but 
> I'm glad I don't have them, as at my most recent exhibit opening A
well known 
> large format Silver printer was going over my hung pieces with a
loupe looking 
> for dots.

Then I would say that this person's opinion is silly no matter how
well known/expert they are, for they are looking for the wrong thing
(forest for the trees syndrome).

If I saw someone looking at my images with a loupe in a gallery I
would laugh out loud, even if it was a big name that could bring me in
fame and fortune. I don't want it that bad.

I don't judge an image on high technical purity. I judge it on
emotional/intelectual impact with sometimes a nod to design elements
like lines and lighting. And I won't change my workflow to please
someone else's viewpoint.

No offense though, I respect YOUR viewpoint, just not your famous
observer's. I have now and then seen (with envy)some artistic work
done by a member or two of this list up close that relied much on
attention to technical details. BUT also on the emotive impact. :-)

Jim Hayes


<snip>
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Steve M.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Serious quadtone BW printing(some thoughts from the last 6 years)

2004-04-16 by Roy Harrington

Steve,

The 7500 is a great machine.  I run mine with quad grays and two toners,
using QuadToneRIP and Mac OS X.  I don't think toners have any detrimental
effect on quality and advantage of variable tone is great.

But I also don't think there's any way to have invisible dots with a 8x loupe
 -- the printer puts out pretty large drops of ink.

I actually ran a five distinct grays system for a while (I've never heard anyone
else do it).  It makes a different -- it is smoother but it's hard to see.
The newer printers with variable dot size can get the same results with
fewer grays.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... wrote:
> I've been swamping out my work area and throwing out prints from the last 6 
> years. 3 or 4 generations of black and white digital materials and prints. I 
> have prints from a dozen workflows and members of this list over the years since 
> its inseption. 
> Some Comments and observations: 
> 1. If your using color inks and or toner inks you will get dots no matter 
> what printer or work flow you use. This includes the 1160,1280,2200,7600,9600 
and 
> everything in between. I can add that you will need an 8x loupe in some cases 
> to see them but they are there. I'm talking about Rourke curves, Quadtone Rip 
> (QTR), I proof power rip, IP5 image print rip, Brandin/wolfe/randall 
> workflows, BO printing, custom profiles to neutralize color inks(all of them)
> I'm not particulaly picky about dots that can't be seen without a loupe, but 
> I'm glad I don't have them, as at my most recent exhibit opening A well known 
> large format Silver printer was going over my hung pieces with a loupe looking 
> for dots.
> I guess I thought since the original piezo plugin that we where all dotless 
> now and that properly partitioned quads where a common place with all the 
> workflows and rips, but this is not the case with a large percentage of the users 
> of this list working with ultrachrome inks or varible tone quad and hex sets of 
>  inks. These efforts remind me of the time and materials wasted 5 years ago. 
> People get away with it now because of the smaller drop sizes in the mordern 
> epson printers.
> My point is for under 4000.00 you can have state of the art quadtone BW 
> printing, 24inches, no dots even with a loupe,some tint control, any quadtone inks 
> you want, no fuss, no muss. How?
> Buy a used or refurb 7000/7500 and Egosofts Studio print software and 
> Greytag's EyeOne Photospectrometer. For a little more you can have a 9000/
9500 44inch 
> set up.
> I did say for serious quadtone printing :) In general the epson prosumer 
> desktops(1160,1280,2200) are short term machines. That need to tweaked and 
> serviced constatntly for BW printing as evidenced on this list.
> With the masses buying 7600/9600's there are 7000' and 9000's available 
> cheap! 1000.00 and 2000.00 easily. About what you would pay for the new 
4000.(hey,I 
> want one too)
> Think about this too. No chipped carts to deal with in these models, 9000 
> 220ml carts will fit in both, so no CIS headaches, Easy to load yourself) 
> reliable paper transport, even very, very thick papers, and for a technical inclinded 
> person they are relatively easy to work on. Head replacements by the user can 
> be done for 150.00(I haven't done this, but will some day)
> Look this list over and see the frustration with cloggs, paper transport 
> issues, CIS woes, metamerizm complaints, dots, shadows blocking, curves 
unavailble 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> and on and on. You might save youself lots of dollars and grief simply by 
> using a more pro qaulity
> printer like epson's first ones the 7000/7500 and 9000/9500 and dedicate it 
> to BW. Most of the headaches on this list come from color inks or trying to get 
> by cheap and in the end most of you will spend close to the state of the art 
> System I described.
> Oops!  forgot that Studio Print needs a PC,  But think about it  if your 
> serious, and I do realize the budget around here is under 2 k for everything but 
> you get what you pay for.
> Are your scans good enough for the highres dotless prints you will get? 
> Get a 7000-9000 epson while you can, These can be ultra pro quad printers 
> that can only be beat by th x600 7 ink wide format printers have have that extra 
> cart for more tone variety.I don't mean varible tone either, just different 
> tones. Vari toner workflows will have dots. But these(7600/9600's )will cost 
> alot more and have there own set of headaches to deal with. 
> 
> My ramble for the month,
> Steve M.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Serious quadtone BW printing(some thoughts from the last 6 years)

2004-04-17 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... wrote:
snip...
> With the masses buying 7600/9600's there are 7000' and 9000's available 
> cheap! 1000.00 and 2000.00 easily. About what you would pay for the
new 4000.

Excellent point. Bigger prints and no chipped carts too. You can do
pretty much anything you need to do with these printers.
Tyler

Re: Serious quadtone BW printing(some thoughts from the last 6 years)

2004-04-17 by quadtone4

Roy, I'm glad you jumped in here. I haven't givin "dots" much thought 
recently until I read your recent post comparing the QTR RIP 7500 
prints vs. the 7600 and you stated you could see dots with a loupe on 
both prints. I really DO believe the dots are invisible on my 7000 
and 9000 prints, certainly compared to 2200 rip prints and any other 
color to Black and white work flow or vari tint workflow I've seen. I 
have not seen QTR prints but you have already stated you can see dots 
with a loupe. Send me your address off list and I will send you a 
print, I'd like to know if I'm crazy :)Well I probably am, but 
another experienced set of eyes can't hurt.
The Darkroom has given us true contiunous tone, and this as not been 
easy to get with digital and inkjet printing,Thanks to 16bit scanning 
and great software the more difficult to see the dots the closer we 
are to continuos tone.IMHO.
I think its a technical miracle, that my dots from the 7000 appear 
close to non existant(invisible) compared to previously mentioned 
workflows that 
actually produce beautiful prints.
Quadtone BW printing is clearly a different animal than making BW 
prints with a color set up.
Steven Meyers--- 
In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" 
<roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> Steve,
> 
> The 7500 is a great machine.  I run mine with quad grays and two 
toners,
> using QuadToneRIP and Mac OS X.  I don't think toners have any 
detrimental
> effect on quality and advantage of variable tone is great.
> 
> But I also don't think there's any way to have invisible dots with 
a 8x loupe
>  -- the printer puts out pretty large drops of ink.
> 
> I actually ran a five distinct grays system for a while (I've never 
heard anyone
> else do it).  It makes a different -- it is smoother but it's hard 
to see.
> The newer printers with variable dot size can get the same results 
with
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> fewer grays.
> 
> Roy
>

Re: Serious quadtone BW printing(some thoughts from the last 6 years)

2004-04-18 by Roy Harrington

Steve,

Sounds worth looking at.   It's so hard to convey judgments of quality.  
I think on the old printers the quality is very dependent on what density
inks are used.  I'm assuming you're using one of the piezotone ink sets?
I.e. 4 grays plus 2 duplicates?  I've picked some of the MIS inks that have
what I figured had to best density separations.

I'm up for "optimizing" the output quality I can from my 7500.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "quadtone4" <sdmey4@a...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Roy, I'm glad you jumped in here. I haven't givin "dots" much thought 
> recently until I read your recent post comparing the QTR RIP 7500 
> prints vs. the 7600 and you stated you could see dots with a loupe on 
> both prints. I really DO believe the dots are invisible on my 7000 
> and 9000 prints, certainly compared to 2200 rip prints and any other 
> color to Black and white work flow or vari tint workflow I've seen. I 
> have not seen QTR prints but you have already stated you can see dots 
> with a loupe. Send me your address off list and I will send you a 
> print, I'd like to know if I'm crazy :)Well I probably am, but 
> another experienced set of eyes can't hurt.
> The Darkroom has given us true contiunous tone, and this as not been 
> easy to get with digital and inkjet printing,Thanks to 16bit scanning 
> and great software the more difficult to see the dots the closer we 
> are to continuos tone.IMHO.
> I think its a technical miracle, that my dots from the 7000 appear 
> close to non existant(invisible) compared to previously mentioned 
> workflows that 
> actually produce beautiful prints.
> Quadtone BW printing is clearly a different animal than making BW 
> prints with a color set up.
> Steven Meyers--- 
> In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" 
> <roy@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Steve,
> > 
> > The 7500 is a great machine.  I run mine with quad grays and two 
> toners,
> > using QuadToneRIP and Mac OS X.  I don't think toners have any 
> detrimental
> > effect on quality and advantage of variable tone is great.
> > 
> > But I also don't think there's any way to have invisible dots with 
> a 8x loupe
> >  -- the printer puts out pretty large drops of ink.
> > 
> > I actually ran a five distinct grays system for a while (I've never 
> heard anyone
> > else do it).  It makes a different -- it is smoother but it's hard 
> to see.
> > The newer printers with variable dot size can get the same results 
> with
> > fewer grays.
> > 
> > Roy
> >

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.