Digital BW, The Print

Jim, The Silver printer going over the prints with a loupe wasn't trying to 
discredit the process,  he was only curious how good the process was for 
possibly his own work. He didn't say that nor did he know I knew who he was, Thats 
just the feeling I got from him. I think he assumed all inkjet prints had dots. 
A landscape Photographer such as he really probably only had a passing 
interest in my images.
I only brought up dots because they don't have to be there at all and they 
can be eliminated at a decent price. I honestly thought they have been gone for 
a couple years until I started looking at prints from other work flows
(with a loupe) trying to save or discard the ones of interest. When quad BW 
inks are partitioned properly there are no dots regarldless of the printer. Its 
all trade offs, varible tints and dots color or not.
And your right, image is everything, who cares about the dots? I 
do(somewhat)because I paid to have them NOT be there, but the image and feel is what 
counts more than anything.
I really only posted food for thought for troubled practioners and those 
looking for a direction. I'm not suggesting anyone change there work flow, But I 
know YOU have many times over the years, Me too. 
My Only point? Technical perfection is avalible at a resonable cost for all 
images and styles and its been around awhile and it dosen't use color inks. Why 
should new commers fight it buying new printers, inventing new work flows, 
Puchacing more software just to tame the effect of color inks. I'm not one who 
strives to make prints that mimic air dryed Silver fiber prints. I'm not in 
this for that at all. 
I'm just trying to steer people to the value of a 7000 or 9000 printer and 
The excellenace of Studio print software perhaps instead of the new 4000 or 
9600.
I will mention a set of prints I have from the tech exchange last year with 
many work flows shows some discolartion on EEM 2200 ultrachrome inks with a 
custom profile wheras the same printer using IP5 for BW has not changed tint as 
far as I can tell.
Color inks for black and white makes me alot more nervous than dots that can 
only be seen with a loupe regardless of what Whilhelm says...
With  Respect,
Steve M.
In a message dated 4/16/2004 2:04:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jimhayes@... writes:
Snip>
> If I saw someone looking at my images with a loupe in a gallery I
> would laugh out loud, even if it was a big name that could bring me in
> fame and fortune. I don't want it that bad.
> 
> I don't judge an image on high technical purity. I judge it on
> emotional/intelectual impact with sometimes a nod to design elements
> like lines and lighting. And I won't change my workflow to please
> someone else's viewpoint.
> 
> No offense though, I respect YOUR viewpoint, just not your famous
> observer's. I have now and then seen (with envy)some artistic work
> done by a member or two of this list up close that relied much on
> attention to technical details. BUT also on the emotive impact. :-)
> 
> Jim Hayes
> 
> 
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... wrote:
> Jim, The Silver printer going over the prints with a loupe wasn't
trying to 
> discredit the process,  he was only curious how good the process was
for 
> possibly his own work. He didn't say that nor did he know I knew who
he was, Thats 
> just the feeling I got from him.

I guess I can understand that. It's just the image of some guy walking
around a Musuem looking at everything with a loupe is just really
funny to me. What would he do at a Serat pointilest exhibition? :-) 


 I think he assumed all inkjet prints had dots. 
> A landscape Photographer such as he really probably only had a passing 
> interest in my images.
> I only brought up dots because they don't have to be there at all
and they 
> can be eliminated at a decent price.


Yes, I think the reasoning does hold for most folks, so I wasn't
disbuting it. I've gotten myself into a odd situation in the last year
or so: I'm now doing color, b&w, desturated color, heavy tints, and
even b&w with spot color- well small areas of print that have color in
them. I've been waiting just under a year for IP to release version 6.
I was told last May about combo b&w/color in one print feature. So I'm
doing prints with the b&w part having metamerism, in hopes I can go
back and re-print. I didn't think it would take this long (I was told
late summer 2003 initially for ver 6).

So although I have both a 2200 AND an 1280 and can do a workflow with
color inks and b&w both, I need to print b&w "areas" with color inks,
assuming IP6 ever does come out...


 I honestly thought they have been gone for 
> a couple years until I started looking at prints from other work flows
> (with a loupe) trying to save or discard the ones of interest. When
quad BW 
> inks are partitioned properly there are no dots regarldless of the
printer. Its 
> all trade offs, varible tints and dots color or not.
> And your right, image is everything, who cares about the dots? I 
> do(somewhat)because I paid to have them NOT be there, but the image
and feel is what 
> counts more than anything.
> I really only posted food for thought for troubled practioners and
those 
> looking for a direction. I'm not suggesting anyone change there work
flow, But I 
> know YOU have many times over the years, Me too.

3 1/2 years for me, and I don't even wan't to think about it. 

> My Only point? Technical perfection is avalible at a resonable cost
for all 
> images and styles and its been around awhile and it dosen't use
color inks. Why 
> should new commers fight it buying new printers, inventing new work
flows, 
> Puchacing more software just to tame the effect of color inks.

Since I guess the MIS UT inksets fixed the clogging problem in dry
climates like mine, I don't think there is any other reason unless one
wants to do color on the same printer as well.

Jim Hayes

 I'm not one who 
> strives to make prints that mimic air dryed Silver fiber prints. I'm
not in 
> this for that at all. 
> I'm just trying to steer people to the value of a 7000 or 9000
printer and 
> The excellenace of Studio print software perhaps instead of the new
4000 or 
> 9600.
> I will mention a set of prints I have from the tech exchange last
year with 
> many work flows shows some discolartion on EEM 2200 ultrachrome inks
with a 
> custom profile wheras the same printer using IP5 for BW has not
changed tint as 
> far as I can tell.
> Color inks for black and white makes me alot more nervous than dots
that can 

> only be seen with a loupe regardless of what Whilhelm says...
> With  Respect,
> Steve M.
> In a message dated 4/16/2004 2:04:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> jimhayes@f... writes:
> Snip>
> > If I saw someone looking at my images with a loupe in a gallery I
> > would laugh out loud, even if it was a big name that could bring me in
> > fame and fortune. I don't want it that bad.
> > 
> > I don't judge an image on high technical purity. I judge it on
> > emotional/intelectual impact with sometimes a nod to design elements
> > like lines and lighting. And I won't change my workflow to please
> > someone else's viewpoint.
> > 
> > No offense though, I respect YOUR viewpoint, just not your famous
> > observer's. I have now and then seen (with envy)some artistic work
> > done by a member or two of this list up close that relied much on
> > attention to technical details. BUT also on the emotive impact. :-)
> > 
> > Jim Hayes
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 4/17/2004 4:10:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
glennthureson@... writes:

> Did we ever have true continuous tone?  Isn't it a matter of scale?  Surely
> in the darkroom the images were made up of tiny bits of silver.  The
> difference now is the the "bits" are easier to see.
> 
> Glenn
> Sure its a matter of scale. But you can't see dots on c prints or silver 
prints, nor can I on my monitor. Certainly they don't aid the tonal scale. Nice 
not to have them, a bonus if you will.
Steve M.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 4/17/2004 5:34:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jimhayes@... writes:
Snip>
> I've gotten myself into a odd situation in the last year
> or so: I'm now doing color, b&w, desturated color, heavy tints, and
> even b&w with spot color- well small areas of print that have color in
> them. I've been waiting just under a year for IP to release version 6.
> I was told last May about combo b&w/color in one print feature. So I'm
> doing prints with the b&w part having metamerism, in hopes I can go
> back and re-print. I didn't think it would take this long (I was told
> late summer 2003 initially for ver 6).
> 
> Jim, Yes I noticed ;0  This is a very exciting area for combination BW and 
color on the same print. I have been aware of your work since back in the LVT 
days.
I'm about to throw out 3k worth of digital LVT negs, they just don't cut it 
compared to what I can get now. There Is Pro out here that has a pre release 
Version of IP6 and he is doing a similiar thing. Warm colored sepia flesh tones 
while the rest of the print is 
neutral BW. Apparently this software is doing the trick for him and he has 
tried everything including lightjet.
Steve M



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/17/2004 5:34:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> jimhayes@f... writes:
> Snip>
> > I've gotten myself into a odd situation in the last year
> > or so: I'm now doing color, b&w, desturated color, heavy tints, and
> > even b&w with spot color- well small areas of print that have color in
> > them. I've been waiting just under a year for IP to release version 6.
> > I was told last May about combo b&w/color in one print feature. So I'm
> > doing prints with the b&w part having metamerism, in hopes I can go
> > back and re-print. I didn't think it would take this long (I was told
> > late summer 2003 initially for ver 6).
> > 
> > Jim, Yes I noticed ;0  This is a very exciting area for
combination BW and 
> color on the same print. I have been aware of your work since back
in the LVT 
> days.
> I'm about to throw out 3k worth of digital LVT negs, they just don't
cut it 
> compared to what I can get now. There Is Pro out here that has a pre
release 
> Version of IP6 and he is doing a similiar thing. Warm colored sepia
flesh tones 
> while the rest of the print is 
> neutral BW. Apparently this software is doing the trick for him and
he has 
> tried everything including lightjet.
> Steve M
> 

I didn't know I had that many visitors to my site. I need to update it
again, I've got some new stuff.

Between 1994 and about 1998-1999 I used an LVT to get digital negs to
print in darkroom. I should have contact printed them instead of
enlarged them a bit. Even if I contact printed though, they would have
come out blurry because of going through two iterations of film: the
original scan of the camera shot negs mixed in photoshop followed by
the grain of the LVT neg.

Horrible way to work. The LVT negs scratched terribly for some reason,
 and if you made a mistake (needed to redo the image in pshop tonally
lets say) you had to wait until you could get to the service beaureau
to redo your LVT. More $$.

ANY kind of inkjet print is better than that.

Jim Hayes