Digital BW, The Print

Hello Clayton,

  Thank you for the response.I especially thank you as this is a
bizarre site where an inordinate number of posts are never answered. 
What I was referring to is that some of the methods you feel lead to
fading and metamerism seem to be used by others on this site (MIS
original quadtones and VMS inks). I have tried BO on my 1270 and find
I can make only small prints due to the dot issue. 
  Perhaps you can answer a question no one here seems to respond to.
I have an Epson 1270 I would like to devote just to BW work. Can you
recommend an inkset to use ?

                  Stuart

>...a question no one here seems to respond to.
>I have an Epson 1270 I would like to devote just to BW work. Can you
>recommend an inkset to use ?

MIS VM inkset supports the 1270.  See 
http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow_roark.html

The MIS UT 1 inkset was an upgrade of the VM inkset and might be fine on the
1270, but I have not seen it.

The UT2 inkset, which was made for the 1280, will run on the 1270 if you use
a 1280 driver (easy with the PC, apparently not feasible with the Mac).
I've seen good results on matte paper.  I was less impressed with the glossy
1270-UT2 prints I saw.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Paul,
  Thank you so much for the reply which is greatly appreciated
1.Do prints with the VM inkset using the 1270 hold up under normal
room light under a frame or do they fade in various color patterns ?
2.Is there any advantage to the UT1 or 2 on the 1270 ?
                         Stuart

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >...a question no one here seems to respond to.
> >I have an Epson 1270 I would like to devote just to BW work. Can you
> >recommend an inkset to use ?
> 
> MIS VM inkset supports the 1270.  See 
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow_roark.html
> 
> The MIS UT 1 inkset was an upgrade of the VM inkset and might be
fine on the
> 1270, but I have not seen it.
> 
> The UT2 inkset, which was made for the 1280, will run on the 1270 if
you use
> a 1280 driver (easy with the PC, apparently not feasible with the Mac).
> I've seen good results on matte paper.  I was less impressed with
the glossy

> 1270-UT2 prints I saw.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Hello Stuart,

>Thank you for the response.I especially thank you as this is a
>bizarre site where an inordinate number of posts are never answered. 

You're welcome.  I think when questions go unanswered it's because
readers either don't know the answer or don't feel qualified to
answer or the question is asked in such a way as to be unclear.  In my
experience this is one of the most active and friendly forums.   



>What I was referring to is that some of the methods you feel lead to
>fading and metamerism seem to be used by others on this site (MIS
>original quadtones and VMS inks). 

I haven't kept count, but my impression is that more and more users
who post in this forum are switching over to the new generation of
longer lasting inks that came out last year.  I doubt anyone would
argue that the earlier quad inks don't fade and/or color shift.  

Another thing is that lots of people are simply reluctant to change.
I was talking recently with one of the paper vendors who had sent
some samples.  I remarked how their newer paper has much better
contrast and Dmax than their older paper, and wondered why they keep
it on the market.  The reply was that people who have been using it
continue to buy it, so they continue to make it.

It's amazing to me that some BW people still use dye inks, but not
everyone is concerned with longevity.  In my darkroom days I favored
fiber papers over the plasticky look and feel of RC prints, yet there
are people who are working hard and won't be satisfied until they can
get those kinds of prints from inkjet.  So we don't all have the same
goals.


>I have tried BO on my 1270 and find I can make only small prints due 
>to the dot issue. 

That's interesting because it's usually less of an issue on larger
prints because the viewing distance is greater and dots are even less
likely to be noticed.  You have to look closely and try hard to see
them.  It's not like film grain which gets bigger as the neg is
enlarged.  The dots and dither patterns remain the same regardless of
print size.  

As for the dots, while for some they are totally unacceptable, for
many others they aren't an issue.  In the beginning I was bothered by
them, but I gradually grew out of it as I realized they weren't
bothering anyone who viewed my prints.  I have shown prints from 4x5
to 11x14 to many people, including experienced darkroom photographers,
and not once has anyone commented on dots or graininess or coarseness
or anything negative.  All I have said is that they are carbon ink
prints and things about using Photoshop and so on.  All I have ever
received is compliments and amazement at the quality.  I even got a
portrait job, coming up next week, based on someone viewing both my
older silver gelatin and newer work (the customer prefers the carbon
ink prints).

It would be great to have no dots, but I love the luminance, intense
Dmax and beauty of Eboni BO prints.  I have read about and have seen
prints from most if not all of the systems and have concluded that in
order to have no dots I'd have to, in some comination: pay a lot more
money, endure more hassle and tribulation, and have prints with less
luminance and in many cases less Dmax.  Nothing I've seen yet has made
me want to switch.  The only system I've seen that comes close to the
luminance of BO is IP, but that is also dotty (and expensive) and
mixes in color inks with the black.  If I'm going to have dots I at
least want them to be all carbon inks.  I am not convinced that an IP
print won't color shift.  Because Eboni gets among the highest
longevity ratings, I have a lot of confidence selling a print knowing
it is a pure carbon ink print with no other pigments or dyes mixed in.
To me that counts for a lot.


>Perhaps you can answer a question no one here seems to respond to.
>I have an Epson 1270 I would like to devote just to BW work. Can you
>recommend an inkset to use ?

Well, obviously I favor BO.  For that I highly recommend Eboni from
MIS (great Dmax, beautiful color, highest longevity ratings).

If you prefer a full ink system one of the MIS UT series of inks
(which also use Eboni) will do very well in the 1270.  I'm sure Paul
Roark can recommend which one, he's doing terrific work on these inks.

These are probably the two easiest and least expensive approaches for
getting high quality archival prints.  After that you start getting
into more expensive or more complex systems (or both) involving
additional software in one form or another.  There is no perfect
system.  You just have to weigh everything and make a choice.

I hope this is helpful.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sl91911" 
<SL91911@Y...> wrote:


> I have tried BO on my 1270 and find I can make only small prints 
due to the dot issue. 

  ??????????????

Shouldn't it be the other way around?    

I can only make BIG prints because of the dotting.  Big prints are 
viewed from farther away, where the dots are invisible.   Small 
prints are viewed more closely where the dots and coarseness in the 
midtones are a big problem.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Stuart,

> and have concluded that in order to have no dots
> I'd have to, in some comination: pay a lot more 
> money, endure more hassle and tribulation, and 
> have prints with less luminance and in many cases
> less Dmax. 

I agree about the money and hassle - BO printing is easy and 
cheap.   3rd-party BW inksets/drivers or professional RIPs are 
expensive, and involve a lot more hassle.    But I don't understand 
why DMAX should be an issue.   DMAX is the ratio of the brightest to 
darkest tone you can reproduce.  That means the brightness of the 
paper where there is no ink, to the blackness of the paper where 
it's 100% ink.  So DMAX should a function of the paper and whatever 
the black ink is.  whethere there's 0, 1, 2 or 3 ink values in 
between should be a non-issue.  

I use BO printing for proofs that I give to my local pro-lab when 
I'm having a bw image in a TIFF printed to photographic paper, and 
later this month I have two large Epson 2200 BO prints in a show in 
an art gallery in Lowell Mass.  Note, however that the gallery 
prints are on Canson Mi Teintes pastel paper, not inkjet paper, so 
they have some ink spreading which blurs the dots, and the paper is 
not white.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> 
> I use BO printing for proofs that I give to my local pro-lab when 
> I'm having a bw image in a TIFF printed to photographic paper, and 
> later this month I have two large Epson 2200 BO prints in a show in 
> an art gallery in Lowell Mass.  Note, however that the gallery 
> prints are on Canson Mi Teintes pastel paper, not inkjet paper, so 
> they have some ink spreading which blurs the dots, and the paper is 
> not white.

Peter, what on earth settings do you use for printing on Canson
MiTeintes Pastel paper?  I would really like to know since, as a
pastel artist, I have a truckload of it around the house.  Do you use
the different colored papers?  thanks for any advice.

Don Karner

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Don" 
<elixirs4me@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
> <pnweb@s...> wrote:
> 

> Peter, what on earth settings do you use for printing on Canson
> MiTeintes Pastel paper? 

I start with the default setting for Epson Enhanced Matte paper and 
up the ink volume setting a bit because it's more absorbent than 
inkjet paper.    One thing I love about the 2200 is that it will 
print on damn near anything.   

> I would really like to know since, as a pastel artist,
> I have a truckload of it around the house.  Do you use the
> different colored papers? 

Yes.   If you're in the Boston area you can see them at the member's 
juried show at the Brush Art Gallery in Lowell, MA, at the end of 
May.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> > I would really like to know since, as a pastel artist,
> > I have a truckload of it around the house.  Do you use the
> > different colored papers? 
> 
> Yes.   If you're in the Boston area you can see them at the member's 
> juried show at the Brush Art Gallery in Lowell, MA, at the end of 
> May.

I would love to see your work, but it is a really LONG drive from
Oklahoma!!!

So, just to clarify, you are doing black and white on different
colored pastel papers.  Now that is really interesting. Can't wait to
try for myself! Thanks for the info.

Don

Stuart,

>1.Do prints with the VM inkset using the 1270 hold up under normal
>room light under a frame or do they fade in various color patterns ?

The VM inkset is one generation behind the UT inksets in the pigments it
uses.  They will warm up in room lighting over a period of many months.
Once the initial warming is done, the pigments will last a long time.  (The
cooler VM prints warm less.  Jerry Olson felt they didn't warm much at all,
but my test show warming.)

>2.Is there any advantage to the UT1 or 2 on the 1270 ?

The UT inks are more lightfast and don't warm nearly as much.  (Carbon
yellows a bit.)  The UT inksets are also glossy paper compatible (pearl and
semigloss finishes preferred).  I prefer the UT2 for glossy surfaces (that
was one of the reasons for it), but the 1270 is not quite up to the 1280
quality with UT2 on glossy paper.  (Actually, I use 1440, High Speed
un-checked.  I'm not sure why the 1270 would not be as good as the 1280 at
that setting.  On my 1280 the 2880 resolution adds little over the 1440 HS
off.)

The UT2 curves are generally easier to deal with and, I believe, less likely
to have posterization problems.  The UT2 curves rely more on the Epson
driver cross-overs, which are very good.  On the other hand, the VM and UT1
inksets have a very light gray that is omitted in the UT2.  For older
printers this light gray can be important.  So, for example, the UT2 did
poorly in my 7500, so I keep the UT1 inkset installed.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/ 



_______________________________

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >...a question no one here seems to respond to.
> >I have an Epson 1270 I would like to devote just to BW work. Can you
> >recommend an inkset to use ?
> 
> MIS VM inkset supports the 1270.  See 
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow_roark.html
> 
> The MIS UT 1 inkset was an upgrade of the VM inkset and might be
fine on the
> 1270, but I have not seen it.
> 
> The UT2 inkset, which was made for the 1280, will run on the 1270 if
you use
> a 1280 driver (easy with the PC, apparently not feasible with the Mac).
> I've seen good results on matte paper.  I was less impressed with
the glossy
> 1270-UT2 prints I saw.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/



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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Stuart,

> >2.Is there any advantage to the UT1 or 2 on the 1270 ?
> 
> The UT inks are more lightfast and don't warm nearly as much.  
(Carbon
> yellows a bit.)  

If they're using standard pyrolytic carbon black (c2H(x) + Cr(x))
then why/how does it yellow at all?   Are they really using iron 
black or something else?    Or is it really the hehicle that's 
yellowing?  (oil paints yellow over time not because of the pigment 
but because of the polymerization of the linseed oil.)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> If they're using standard pyrolytic carbon black (c2H(x) + Cr(x))
> then why/how does it yellow at all?   Are they really using iron 
> black or something else?    Or is it really the hehicle that's 
> yellowing?  (oil paints yellow over time not because of the 
pigment but because of the polymerization of the linseed oil.)

"hehicle"?  Make that 'vehicle'.

Peter,

I'm not sure exactly what form of carbon is in the inks we use.  The Epson
MSDSs tend to list carbon as, at most, just one of the ingredients.  I have
not seen MSDSs for the MIS inks.   I suspect no one out there wants us to
know exactly what is in these inks.

So, I'm using "carbon" loosely.  I have assumed the carbon is mostly
graphite, but I don't know.

I doubt very much that the black inks contain black iron oxide.  Its
specific gravity is way too high.

My tests, however, are consistent with what I've heard -- that carbon does
yellow slightly.  I can't tell why or, for example, whether it is the base
or the pigment itself.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Nelson [mailto:pnweb@...] 
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 8:33 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 1270 B&W (was Clayton's Site)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Stuart,

> >2.Is there any advantage to the UT1 or 2 on the 1270 ?
> 
> The UT inks are more lightfast and don't warm nearly as much.  
(Carbon
> yellows a bit.)  

If they're using standard pyrolytic carbon black (c2H(x) + Cr(x))
then why/how does it yellow at all?   Are they really using iron 
black or something else?    Or is it really the hehicle that's 
yellowing?  (oil paints yellow over time not because of the pigment 
but because of the polymerization of the linseed oil.)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
...
> My tests, however, are consistent with what I've heard -- that
carbon does
> yellow slightly.  I can't tell why or, for example, whether it is
the base
> or the pigment itself.  

I don't know if this is relevant any more, but long ago Dan Culbertson
did some tests with the clear base from MIS. It did not yellow on it's
own. I'm sure the base has probably evolved since then so maybe this
is too old to take seriously. On the other hand, at that same time,
the quad inks themselves did yellow.
I don't know why the prints yellow and certainly don't have the
chemistry background you guys do, but every ink I've ever used tends
to cure or change appearance as it dries on paper. Even though the
print itself yellows slightly, could it be that the carbon component
itself is not, and that all components (including paper wet vrs dry,
and the coating too) are simply settling in?
Tyler

Hello Peter,

>>...in many cases less Dmax. 
 
>But I don't understand why DMAX should be an issue.

I am referring to the fact (according to Paul Roark) that some systems
underlay the black with some other ink, which lessens the Dmax a bit.
 I have noticed the difference in comparisons with prints I've
received in exchanges.  A good friend of mine uses one of the UT ink
sets in a 7500.  He has said on several occasions that my Eboni BO
prints have better Dmax than his.  Other people have reported similar
observations here in the forum from time to time.  Paul said once
(Paul, please correct me if this is wrong) something to the effect
that he prints 100% BO patches when he measures paper Dmax.



Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Peter,
> 
> >>...in many cases less Dmax. 
>  
> >But I don't understand why DMAX should be an issue.
> 
> I am referring to the fact (according to Paul Roark) that some 
systems
> underlay the black with some other ink, which lessens the Dmax a 
bit.


I certainly agree that if it did mix in other colors, even for 
values at RGB 0,0,0 that it could certainly reduce the dynamic range 
of the print.   But why would they do that?

Hello Peter,

>>>>...in many cases less Dmax. 
>>>But I don't understand why DMAX should be an issue.
>>I am referring to the fact (according to Paul Roark) that some 
>>systems underlay the black with some other ink, which lessens 
>>the Dmax a bit.
 
>I certainly agree that if it did mix in other colors, even for 
>values at RGB 0,0,0 that it could certainly reduce the dynamic 
>range of the print.   But why would they do that?

Paul explained it once and it made sense, but I can't remember in
enough detail to repeat it accurately.  Maybe if he sees this...


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton, Tyler,
What papers are you referring to?
thanks for all your input!
t

On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 11:01  PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

> I was talking recently with one of the paper vendors who had sent
> some samples.  I remarked how their newer paper has much better
> contrast and Dmax than their older paper, and wondered why they keep
> it on the market.  The reply was that people who have been using it
> continue to buy it, so they continue to make it.
>

Sorry, don't think I was part of that conversation.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, t <ternahan@s...>
wrote:

> Clayton, Tyler,
> What papers are you referring to?
> thanks for all your input!
> t
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 11:01  PM, Clayton Jones wrote:
> 
> > I was talking recently with one of the paper vendors who had sent
> > some samples.  I remarked how their newer paper has much better
> > contrast and Dmax than their older paper, and wondered why they keep
> > it on the market.  The reply was that people who have been using it
> > continue to buy it, so they continue to make it.
> >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
> <cj@c...> wrote:
> > Hello Peter,
> > 
> > >>...in many cases less Dmax. 
> >  
> > >But I don't understand why DMAX should be an issue.
> > 
> > I am referring to the fact (according to Paul Roark) that some 
> systems
> > underlay the black with some other ink, which lessens the Dmax a 
> bit.
> 
> 
> I certainly agree that if it did mix in other colors, even for 
> values at RGB 0,0,0 that it could certainly reduce the dynamic range 
> of the print.   But why would they do that?

It's called a rich black, and it's been done for years for many
reasons. It's usefullness for processes used on this list with
contemporary popular materials is limited. With some ink/paper/drivers
it can enhance dmax, depending on the manner in which it's done. In
other circumstances (ink/paper/driver) it can reduce dmax as has been
noted, but it would be incorrect to say it does as a rule, always.
An example of an inkset that a rich black helped, was the older
Generations color inks with the unenhanced pure pigment K. It was a
lower dmax ink, and leaving the correct amount of CMY underneath helped.
There may be other concerns it's addresses as well, other than just
dmax issues. If I'm using a driver that will allow it, I always test
to see if it can be beneficial.
Tyler

I'm having such good luck with the UT-2 inks in my 1280 that I've 
decided to use them with my 1270 also. My questions are: how do I 
get the 1280 driver to push the 1270? (Paul R. says it's easy....) 
Will the 1280 driver operate both a 1280 and a 1270 on the same 
computer? I'm running under Windows XP. Any advice would be much 
appreciated.
BJM

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Barry McWayne" 
<fnbjm1@u...> wrote:
> I'm having such good luck with the UT-2 inks in my 1280 that I've 
> decided to use them with my 1270 also. 

Just out of curiosity, why?   I.e., if you already use a 1280, what 
additional benefit do you expect from the 1270?

I'm a BW fine art photographer and do a lot of printing. It's quite 
convenient to have both my printers able to run at the same time -- 
as they are not the fastest devices around, especially when making 
13X19 prints. Currently, my 1270 has Cone Carbon Sepia inks 
installed and it produces excellent results. But the variable tone 
that UT-2 inks offer is compelling. Also, just like I tended to 
shoot one type of film and use one type of paper in the "old days," 
I like the idea of working with one brand of ink, learining it 
thoroughly, and getting on with making art.
BJM

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
<pnweb@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Barry 
McWayne" 
> <fnbjm1@u...> wrote:
> > I'm having such good luck with the UT-2 inks in my 1280 that 
I've 
> > decided to use them with my 1270 also. 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, why?   I.e., if you already use a 1280, 
what 
> additional benefit do you expect from the 1270?