Digital BW, The Print

Lynne

Back to the original question.  Yes you can get great B&W with the Epson
2200 printer that you OWN TODAY.  A custom profile will improve the colour
output but will do little for your black and white.  I custom profile my
printer with the Gretag Macbeth Eye-One.  A B&W print with a profiled
21/2200 using the Epson driver will still exhibit metamerism.  The good news
is that there exist simple means of getting rid of this problem WITHOUT
spending a lot of additional money.  Start with Roy¹s QTR and your existing
inks.  It costs nothing but a little time to give it a go.  I can tell you
that the difference between QTR and the Epson driver is night and day.  The
principal reason is that QTR has dedicated control over the individual inks,
balancing light magenta and light cyan evenly and not using any yellow.

If that doesn¹t do it for you then you are into different inks and
dedicating your printer to B&W eg the new UT7 inks developed by Paul Roark.

Give it a whirl

Steve

From: "Scott Graham" <gebilwil@...>


<The solution is a custom profile for your paper.>

<Or if you can afford a 4000, I highly recommend it.>
Scott

PS:  you could also go black only, but I consider than an inferior
compromise, and the
Epson black is a bit warm.


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lynne Siler"
<lhsiler@b...> 
wrote:
> I tried using a Epson 1270 with Lyson quad blacks last year, and the prints
> started fading within months! So I happily bought the 2200 and am happy for
> the most part, but cannot seem to get consistent results when printing black
> and white images. I've thought about buying  another 2200 and looking into
> 3rd party inks again, but after getting burned by the  Lyson inks I'm not sure
> where to go with this. What are most of you doing for nice B&W prints?  I'm
> using epson velvet for most prints and print mostly portraits.
> 
> Thanks,
> Lynne Siler






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:

>   The good news is that there exist simple means of 
> getting rid of this problem WITHOUT spending a 
> lot of additional money.  Start with Roy¹s QTR and 
> your existing inks.  It costs nothing but a little 
> time to give it a go.  

Do you know for a fact that she has a Mac or Linux box?

> >   The good news is that there exist simple means of 
> > getting rid of this problem WITHOUT spending a 
> > lot of additional money.  Start with Roy¹s QTR and 
> > your existing inks.  It costs nothing but a little 
> > time to give it a go.  
> 
> Do you know for a fact that she has a Mac or Linux box?

Pete - well Doh! do you know for a fact she doesn't...?

a) if she was smart she would

and b) actually, yes she is using a Mac

So what exactly was your point?

mark

No, but if you read the earlier posts you will see the question was asked.
When someone asks how can I get good black and white with a 2200 it is a
pointless response to suggest they buy a 4000.  Read the earlier posts ­
before this got way off the original topic.

From: "Peter Nelson" <pnweb@studio-nelson.com>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 23:02:18 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Can I get a nice neutral black and white print
from the 2200?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:

>   The good news is that there exist simple means of
> getting rid of this problem WITHOUT spending a
> lot of additional money.  Start with Roy¹s QTR and
> your existing inks.  It costs nothing but a little
> time to give it a go.

Do you know for a fact that she has a Mac or Linux box?





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> No, but if you read the earlier posts you will see the question was 
asked.
> When someone asks how can I get good black and white with a 2200 it 
is a
> pointless response to suggest they buy a 4000.  Read the earlier 
posts ­
> before this got way off the original topic.

I did but I still don't see where you got the idea Lynne had a Mac or 
Linux box, which is the only way your suggestion that QTR represented 
a solution that didn't involve a lot of money would make sense.  I 
agree that suggesting a 4000 would have made just as little sense.  
Also, the 4000 uses the same basic inks as the 2200 and the 2200's 
metamerism problem is in its inks, so there's no reason to think the 
4000 is much better.

My original post had said asked whether she was using a PC or Mac and had
noted that if Mac then QTR was a solution.

(Personally I would put the $400 some people spend on Imageprint (it is
about double that in the UK) towards a Mac and simplifier a lot of other
computer related factors in life as well.)


I did but I still don't see where you got the idea Lynne had a Mac or
Linux box, which is the only way your suggestion that QTR represented
a solution that didn't involve a lot of money would make sense.  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> My original post had said asked whether she was using a PC or Mac
and had
> noted that if Mac then QTR was a solution.
> 
> (Personally I would put the $400 some people spend on Imageprint (it is
> about double that in the UK) towards a Mac and simplifier a lot of other
> computer related factors in life as well.)
> 
> 
> I did but I still don't see where you got the idea Lynne had a Mac or
> Linux box, which is the only way your suggestion that QTR represented
> a solution that didn't involve a lot of money would make sense.  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Any body have any suggestions that might help with a PC? Unfortunately
at the momment the expense to switch over to a MAC is not possible.
Yet I would still like to get more neutral Black & White prints.

Cheers,
Michael

Hello Michael,

>Anybody have any suggestions that might help with a PC?
>Unfortunately at the momment the expense to switch over 
>to a MAC is not possible.  Yet I would still like to get 
>more neutral Black & White prints.

Depending on your personal FT (Freak-out Threshold) for ink dots, you
might like Black Only printing.  BO prints have a slight grainy
appearance that is reminiscent of Tri-X prints, and individual dots in
highlights can be seen with a loupe.  There are many BW photographers
who aren't bothered by this and love BO prints for their luminosity
and intense Dmax (and other advantages).  

BO prints are especially beautiful when Eboni ink is used.  Eboni is
cooler than other black inks, and the various papers available allow a
range of print tones from neutral (using Condor BW) to warm (Photo
Rag, Premier Hot Press).  Because Eboni has very high archival
ratings, plus the fact that BO prints are pure black ink without any
color toners, you have the confidence of knowing that your prints have
the highest possible archival factors available today.

It's easy and inexpensive, so it might be worth a try if you haven't
already.  More information is available in the article "Digital Tri-X"
on the web site listed below.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Calas" 
> Any body have any suggestions that might help with a PC?
> Unfortunately at the momment the expense to switch over 
> to a MAC is not possible. Yet I would still like to get 
> more neutral Black & White prints.

No offense, but I think we've beaten this topic to death.  Your 
choices are:

1.  Black Only printing if the dots don't bother you or your 
intended clients.   This is by far the easiest and cheapest 
approach, but I find it suitable only for large prints viewed from a 
distance because of the dots.  

2.  Dedicated BW printer using quadtone/hextone/septone ink systems 
from various suppliers.  You have to like tinkering, dealing with 
3rd-party suppliers, and be willing to invest in a second printer 
and the inks, drivers, etc, but people who go this route rave about 
it.

3.  RIP software.  Expensive, and BW printing is not really the 
raison d'etre of RIPs, so it's like buying a car just because you 
like the stereo in it, but it works pretty well.

4.  Send your digital BW files out to be printed photographically.  
You get a true BW photographic print, so it's relatively stable and 
metamerism-free.   But it can get expensive, and be time-consuming 
if you need to make more than one try to get exactly the result you 
want.

Unfortunately there IS no BW printing option that is as easy, quick 
and cheap as color, and nothing on the horizon.  So get used to 
it.   I use #4 for prints up to 8x12, and #1 for 12x17's unless they 
will be viewed closely.

If you can live with 8x12/8.5x14" prints or smaller the HP printers 
give you b&w that is just as easy as any plug and play color printer 
and the prints are excellent and reported to be archival.

mark

PS  Yes, it's been beaten to death, but you forgot this option in 
your list.

...
> Unfortunately there IS no BW printing option that is as easy, quick 
> and cheap as color, and nothing on the horizon. 
...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> If you can live with 8x12/8.5x14" prints or smaller the HP printers 
> give you b&w that is just as easy as any plug and play color printer 
> and the prints are excellent and reported to be archival.
> 
> mark

Mark, where are you getting your 8x14 paper to work with the 7660?  I
only find HP Premium Plus in the 8 1/2 by 11 size and no larger.  Any
info would be appreciated.

OL' Don in Broken Arrow

In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> If you can live with 8x12/8.5x14" prints or smaller
> the HP printers give you b&w that is just as easy 
> as any plug and play color printer and the prints are
> excellent and reported to be archival.

Can you cite where you heard they were archival?  I was under the 
impression all the HP's used dye-based inks.

I by 11x17" and cut it down.  They stock this paper at CompUSA.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Don" 
<elixirs4me@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > If you can live with 8x12/8.5x14" prints or smaller the HP 
printers 
> > give you b&w that is just as easy as any plug and play color 
printer 
> > and the prints are excellent and reported to be archival.
> > 
> > mark
> 
> Mark, where are you getting your 8x14 paper to work with the 7660?  
I
> only find HP Premium Plus in the 8 1/2 by 11 size and no larger.  
Any

> info would be appreciated.
> 
> OL' Don in Broken Arrow

Wilhelm gives the b&w prints a rating of 100+ years which seems 
archival enough for me.  Yes, it is an encapsulated paper/dye 
combination and performance will not be the same on either matte or 
3rd party papers.  I think the HP prints are excellent and have left 
my 1160 purged and idle since getting the 7660... until I need larger 
prints of course.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > If you can live with 8x12/8.5x14" prints or smaller
> > the HP printers give you b&w that is just as easy 
> > as any plug and play color printer and the prints are
> > excellent and reported to be archival.
> 
> Can you cite where you heard they were archival?  I was under the 
> impression all the HP's used dye-based inks.