Digital BW, The Print

Is there a technique in Photoshop that might help with this? I'm trying to salvage 25-year 
old B&W negatives that have been damaged by poor storage. It's a long story, but the 
images have historic value, hence the salvage effort.

In any case, there is extensive crazing in the emulsion of the 35mm Tri-X negatives, 
leaving a visible pattern of random cracks in the image and leaving an overall gray tone.

Here's a link to a sample image:

http://ilind.net/gallery_old/ritte1976/image/ritte7.jpg

Any ideas for how to approach a problem of this kind? All suggestions appreciated.

Hi Ian-

It¹s possible that with a wet mounted drum scan, the oil would fill in a lot
of the crazing- it depends on where in the film the crazing exists.

Other than that, bear in mind that any of the Photoshop automatic dust and
scratch-type filters will reduce fine detail as well as reducing the
crazing.  It all depend on how large you want to print these images.

Good Luck with this.


Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
343 Medford St., 2nd Flr
Somerville, MA 02145
(617) 868-7642


on 5/19/04 4:40 PM, Ian Lind wrote:

> 
> Is there a technique in Photoshop that might help with this? I'm trying to
> salvage 25-year 
> old B&W negatives that have been damaged by poor storage. It's a long story,
> but the 
> images have historic value, hence the salvage effort.
> 
> In any case, there is extensive crazing in the emulsion of the 35mm Tri-X
> negatives, 
> leaving a visible pattern of random cracks in the image and leaving an overall
> gray tone.
> 
> Here's a link to a sample image:
> 
> http://ilind.net/gallery_old/ritte1976/image/ritte7.jpg
> 
> Any ideas for how to approach a problem of this kind? All suggestions
> appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>  
>  ADVERTISEMENT
>  
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129321rc9/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S
> =1705019182:HM/EXP=1085089174/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://companion.ya
> hoo.com>  
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> *  
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsub
> scribe> 
> *  
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ian,
Get a copy of the book 'Photoshop Restoration & Retouching' by Katrin Eismann
Cheers
Jayanand Govindaraj
Chennai, India

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ian Lind 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:10 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Salvaging damaged negatives



  Is there a technique in Photoshop that might help with this? I'm trying to salvage 25-year 
  old B&W negatives that have been damaged by poor storage. It's a long story, but the 
  images have historic value, hence the salvage effort.

  In any case, there is extensive crazing in the emulsion of the 35mm Tri-X negatives, 
  leaving a visible pattern of random cracks in the image and leaving an overall gray tone.

  Here's a link to a sample image:

  http://ilind.net/gallery_old/ritte1976/image/ritte7.jpg

  Any ideas for how to approach a problem of this kind? All suggestions appreciated.







  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
   
  Yahoo! Groups Links



   



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Given that the crazing adds density, it means
there is something stuck on there. Have you
tried re-washing them to remove whatever it
is. Don't try it on an important shot
straight up as not knowing the history I'd
hate to hear about the emulsion dissolving.



> Ian Lind <ilind@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Is there a technique in Photoshop that
might help with this? I'm
> trying to salvage 25-year 
> old B&W negatives that have been damaged by
poor storage. It's a long
> story, but the 
> images have historic value, hence the
salvage effort.
> 
> In any case, there is extensive crazing in
the emulsion of the 35mm
> Tri-X negatives, 
> leaving a visible pattern of random cracks
in the image and leaving
> an overall gray tone.
> 
> Here's a link to a sample image:
> 
>
http://ilind.net/gallery_old/ritte1976/image/ritte7.jpg
> 
> Any ideas for how to approach a problem of
this kind? All suggestions
> appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-->
> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo!
Companion Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/ucIolB/TM
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check
the Files, and other
> resources as they are often being updated.
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a
daily digest, or you wish
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership
preferences by visiting
> this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess
portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No
personal attacks or
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or
argumentative users may be removed
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to
the group topic of digital
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make
off-topic posts may be
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to
abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and
decisions of the group
> Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic,
Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the
> Files section:
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES
TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND
AND AGREE THAT THE
> \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT,
INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES,
INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE,
DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
THE INABILITY TO USE THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA;
(iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT
> OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv)
> ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> 
>     
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ~->

I suggest you go to Usenet rec.photo.darkroom and post your question 
there. There are a variety of "re-processing" techniques that might 
restore your negatives so they scan better. Re-washing is a good 
first step. There is a slight danger that the emulsion is so damaged 
that re-washing causes more harm, but not much. However, I would not 
hold out much hope for improvement thru re-washing. Other techniques 
might help, but they are usually do-or-die. For example, soaking an 
old negative with a "thin" emulsion in a heavy concentrate of 
Selenium will restore density, but if you go to far the negative 
get's too dense and shadows might be lost.

Post on rec.photo.darkroom and hope that a guy named Richard Knoppow 
answers you. He's a technical film chemistry genius, and very 
helpful. I had this old e-mail address for him, but it's very old and 
may no longer be valid.  dickburk@...

Ian Lind wrote:

> Is there a technique in Photoshop that might help with this? I'm trying to salvage 25-year 
> old B&W negatives that have been damaged by poor storage. It's a long story, but the 
> images have historic value, hence the salvage effort.
> 
> In any case, there is extensive crazing in the emulsion of the 35mm Tri-X negatives, 
> leaving a visible pattern of random cracks in the image and leaving an overall gray tone.
> 
> Here's a link to a sample image:
> 
> http://ilind.net/gallery_old/ritte1976/image/ritte7.jpg
> 
> Any ideas for how to approach a problem of this kind? All suggestions appreciated.

Wetmounting the negatives while scanning is worth a try. Use the 
least valuable for a first attempt. I can't guarantee that it 
doesn't harm them but where is the historic value, in the 
negative or in the image ?

I have maybe a thousand 35 mm B&W negatives, FP4, HP4 and Tri-X 
that are from 1968 - 1982 and none show that crazing, what has 
been the cause of it ?  I wasn't very careful either since then.

Ernst

glennrbarry@... wrote:

> Given that the crazing adds density, it means
> there is something stuck on there. Have you
> tried re-washing them to remove whatever it
> is. Don't try it on an important shot
> straight up as not knowing the history I'd
> hate to hear about the emulsion dissolving.

Crazing can give density increase just by having 4 surfaces in 
the optical path. The 2 of the film substrate and 2 of the 
emulsion just near the cracks. Plus some deflection as the two 
layers will be at a small angle to one another.  I guess it is 
caused by storing the films in a very hot and dry environment. If 
the film was in sleeves that may be all that happened. If the 
conditions were different and organisms are the cause of the 
problem then it becomes much more complex.

Wet mounting isn't restricted to drum scanners but can be done on 
flatbeds and CCD filmscanners too. Wet mounting is done with 
fluids that will not affect the emulsion nor the substrate and 
that can evaporate afterwards depending on which fluid you use. 
The fluid will diminish the optical path problems by filling in 
the cracks, the voids between the emulsion and the film and the 
scratches.

Ernst