Digital BW, The Print

Hi peeps,

While I'm waiting for the keys to my new abode (which will finally 
provide me with room for that second printer!) I've just been re-
reviewing the inkset options in the light of what I've seen on 
Roy's "Dots, Dots" page. A few questions have cropped up that I'm 
hoping Paul, Roy and maybe Daniel S can help me with...

First off, how does UT for 4-colour printers achieve variable toning, 
or does MIS page lie when it says there are "4 shades of black" in 
this inkset? (http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/qn.html)

Next up, regarding UT2 on the same page MIS state that you need to 
switch blacks to go between matte and RC papers, but Paul's site says 
that Eboni will do both with the 1280:

http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-Readme.htm

I'm guessing that MIS say to use PK for gloss prints because this 
works without any curves. Then is it right that UT1 quad and hex also 
allow compatibility with all paper types provided Eboni is installed 
and the correct curve adjustments are made?

Then again maybe not... I recall in a previous message Daniel Stavers 
had this to say: "I'm planning to ditch my UT1 setup and use UT7 when 
it's available as well. I have some images that would look nice in 
sepia, and I will also enjoy doing some glossy printing again."  
Explanation anyone?

Thirdly, looking at the evolution from VM to UT, and considering 
Roy's comments about the lighter grey provided in the VMS set for the 
1160, is it true to say that the lightest UT grey is darker than the 
lightest VM grey in order to allow the "Easy B&W" functionality?


Underlying all this is my desire to meet certain goals in my prints. 
I'm mainly looking for smoothness, and if I ever do want to produce a 
rough and grainy image I'd prefer that to be a representation of the 
film grain rather than anything added by the printer. I want to be 
able to do cross-toning, and print well to matte and gloss papers. 
OTOH I *don't* particularly mind if I can't use the Epson driver, or 
if I need to spend a lot of time creating curves or profiles for the 
papers I settle on. I guess the best solution would be a septone 
inkset, with Eboni plus separate warm and cool greyscale sets of 
three inks each, with the lightest density being similar to the 
lightest ink in the VM set. That should give a level of smoothness 
akin to VM or a pure quadtone set, I reckon (anyone care to 
contradict?)

Roy, is there any reason why QTR couldn't do a good job of driving an 
inkset like that?

-= mike =-

PS. Sundance Septone is the only out-of-the-box solution to this, 
correct? And AIUI, it's not noted for its stability?

Mike,

> ... in the light of what I've seen on Roy's "Dots, Dots" page. 
>A few questions have cropped up ...

>First off, how does UT for 4-colour printers achieve variable toning ...

The Y position ink is a cool toner, just like the original MIS VM inkset.
The gamut of the toner is slightly higher because the black and gray inks in
the UT inkset are warmer (the same warmth that the VM inkset would be once
the inkset warms up).

>Next up, regarding UT2 on the same page MIS state that you need to 
>switch blacks to go between matte and RC papers, but Paul's site says 
>that Eboni will do both with the 1280:

>http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-Readme.htm

Correct.  With the quads you'll need PK for glossy printing.  (Some have
used a post-printing spray with Eboni just like we used to have to do with
the old VM or Piezo systems.)  

With the UT2 and UT7 inksets the systems can print on glossy paper even with
Eboni installed.  This is done by avoiding using the Eboni ink.  The 2
midtone grays are dark enough to achieve a dmax that is about 5% lower than
if the PK were used.  On Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl, the dmax with no PK
used is over 2.3.

>... is it right that UT1 quad and hex also 
>allow compatibility with all paper types provided Eboni is installed 
>and the correct curve adjustments are made?

No.  The UT1 inkset requires PK to print well on glossy paper.  Only UT2 and
UT7 can print well on glossy with the Eboni installed.

>Thirdly, looking at the evolution from VM to UT, and considering 
>Roy's comments about the lighter grey provided in the VMS set for the 
>1160, is it true to say that the lightest UT grey is darker than the 
>lightest VM grey in order to allow the "Easy B&W" functionality?

The lightest UT2 and UT7 grays are darker than the VM and UT1 lightest gray.
This is needed to get the sepia in there and to allow printing without the
use of curves -- the "EZ" mode.

This is why the UT2 is for the 1280 only.  The 1280 is good enough that the
light ink needed for the old quads (like the 3000) is not needed for
visually smooth prints.  Of course, the 1160, with its rather modern
variable-dot design, can achieve smoother highlights with the lighter gray
ink.  However, there is a point where more smoothness just doesn't add any
significant value, whereas the alternative uses of that ink position does.
So, the UT2 design, for me and many others, is better compromise of features
and makes prints that, overall, are better than the 1160.  I will probably
throw my 1160 in the trash now instead of fixing it again.

>I'm mainly looking for smoothness ...

Get some samples from people.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the reply. Re the first item, that means that the VM/1160 
combo is only using three main black/grey levels -- and it still gets 
the smoothest result. Interesting. On the second point, now you've 
reminded me I do recall that Eboni isn't used in UT2/7 for gloss 
(sorry, there's so much to remember with this stuff!)

Yes, I'd like to get some samples, but I don't know how easy it'll be 
since I'm in the UK and most of the members of this group seem to be 
Stateside. No harm to ask though, and I'll post a separate message to 
that end.

Best regards,

-= mike =-

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Mike,
> 
> > ... in the light of what I've seen on Roy's "Dots, Dots" page. 
> >A few questions have cropped up ...
> 
> >First off, how does UT for 4-colour printers achieve variable 
toning ...
> 
> The Y position ink is a cool toner, just like the original MIS VM 
inkset.
> The gamut of the toner is slightly higher because the black and 
gray inks in
> the UT inkset are warmer (the same warmth that the VM inkset would 
be once
> the inkset warms up).
> 
> >Next up, regarding UT2 on the same page MIS state that you need to 
> >switch blacks to go between matte and RC papers, but Paul's site 
says 
> >that Eboni will do both with the 1280:
> 
> >http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-Readme.htm
> 
> Correct.  With the quads you'll need PK for glossy printing.  (Some 
have
> used a post-printing spray with Eboni just like we used to have to 
do with
> the old VM or Piezo systems.)  
> 
> With the UT2 and UT7 inksets the systems can print on glossy paper 
even with
> Eboni installed.  This is done by avoiding using the Eboni ink.  
The 2
> midtone grays are dark enough to achieve a dmax that is about 5% 
lower than
> if the PK were used.  On Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl, the dmax with 
no PK
> used is over 2.3.
> 
> >... is it right that UT1 quad and hex also 
> >allow compatibility with all paper types provided Eboni is 
installed 
> >and the correct curve adjustments are made?
> 
> No.  The UT1 inkset requires PK to print well on glossy paper.  
Only UT2 and
> UT7 can print well on glossy with the Eboni installed.
> 
> >Thirdly, looking at the evolution from VM to UT, and considering 
> >Roy's comments about the lighter grey provided in the VMS set for 
the 
> >1160, is it true to say that the lightest UT grey is darker than 
the 
> >lightest VM grey in order to allow the "Easy B&W" functionality?
> 
> The lightest UT2 and UT7 grays are darker than the VM and UT1 
lightest gray.
> This is needed to get the sepia in there and to allow printing 
without the
> use of curves -- the "EZ" mode.
> 
> This is why the UT2 is for the 1280 only.  The 1280 is good enough 
that the
> light ink needed for the old quads (like the 3000) is not needed for
> visually smooth prints.  Of course, the 1160, with its rather modern
> variable-dot design, can achieve smoother highlights with the 
lighter gray
> ink.  However, there is a point where more smoothness just doesn't 
add any
> significant value, whereas the alternative uses of that ink 
position does.
> So, the UT2 design, for me and many others, is better compromise of 
features
> and makes prints that, overall, are better than the 1160.  I will 
probably

> throw my 1160 in the trash now instead of fixing it again.
> 
> >I'm mainly looking for smoothness ...
> 
> Get some samples from people.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Mike,

>... the VM/1160 combo is only using three main black/grey levels 

Yes.

>-- and it still gets the smoothest result. 

In high magnification scans the highlights are smoother than the others Roy
measured.  The 1280 with VM has the smoothest I've ever measured.  I don't
think most are going to see any differences.

The 1280/90 also has smoother shadow tones, at least on matte paper.  (My
tests usually show the 1280 smoother on glossy also, although there may be
some papers and situations where the 1290 is less than perfect there.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/


______________________________ 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Mike,
> 
> > ... in the light of what I've seen on Roy's "Dots, Dots" page. 
> >A few questions have cropped up ...
> 
> >First off, how does UT for 4-colour printers achieve variable 
toning ...
> 
> The Y position ink is a cool toner, just like the original MIS VM 
inkset.
> The gamut of the toner is slightly higher because the black and 
gray inks in
> the UT inkset are warmer (the same warmth that the VM inkset would 
be once
> the inkset warms up).
> 
> >Next up, regarding UT2 on the same page MIS state that you need to 
> >switch blacks to go between matte and RC papers, but Paul's site 
says 
> >that Eboni will do both with the 1280:
> 
> >http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-Readme.htm
> 
> Correct.  With the quads you'll need PK for glossy printing.  (Some 
have
> used a post-printing spray with Eboni just like we used to have to 
do with
> the old VM or Piezo systems.)  
> 
> With the UT2 and UT7 inksets the systems can print on glossy paper 
even with
> Eboni installed.  This is done by avoiding using the Eboni ink.  
The 2
> midtone grays are dark enough to achieve a dmax that is about 5% 
lower than
> if the PK were used.  On Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl, the dmax with 
no PK
> used is over 2.3.
> 
> >... is it right that UT1 quad and hex also 
> >allow compatibility with all paper types provided Eboni is 
installed 
> >and the correct curve adjustments are made?
> 
> No.  The UT1 inkset requires PK to print well on glossy paper.  
Only UT2 and
> UT7 can print well on glossy with the Eboni installed.
> 
> >Thirdly, looking at the evolution from VM to UT, and considering 
> >Roy's comments about the lighter grey provided in the VMS set for 
the 
> >1160, is it true to say that the lightest UT grey is darker than 
the 
> >lightest VM grey in order to allow the "Easy B&W" functionality?
> 
> The lightest UT2 and UT7 grays are darker than the VM and UT1 
lightest gray.
> This is needed to get the sepia in there and to allow printing 
without the
> use of curves -- the "EZ" mode.
> 
> This is why the UT2 is for the 1280 only.  The 1280 is good enough 
that the
> light ink needed for the old quads (like the 3000) is not needed for
> visually smooth prints.  Of course, the 1160, with its rather modern
> variable-dot design, can achieve smoother highlights with the 
lighter gray
> ink.  However, there is a point where more smoothness just doesn't 
add any
> significant value, whereas the alternative uses of that ink 
position does.
> So, the UT2 design, for me and many others, is better compromise of 
features
> and makes prints that, overall, are better than the 1160.  I will 
probably
> throw my 1160 in the trash now instead of fixing it again.
> 
> >I'm mainly looking for smoothness ...
> 
> Get some samples from people.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/




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Hello Paul

On Wednesday, May 26, 2004, at 10:40  AM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Correct.  With the quads you'll need PK for glossy printing.  (Some 
> have
> used a post-printing spray with Eboni just like we used to have to do 
> with
> the old VM or Piezo systems.)

Do I take this to mean that it is then possible to print on glossy 
papers with the old VM inkset as long as you use a post-printing spray ?

If so, which sprays and paper combinations are best suited for this ?

Thanks
Tim

Tim,

Some people did (maybe still do) print on "glossy" paper with the VM inkset.
I think you'd be better off with the UT inkset, but in either case on most
papers the prints look better with a spray.

With the UT inks and PK, the spray is to get rid of bronzing and
differential glossiness.  These artifacts show up on the newest papers only.
The older Epson Glossy Photo Paper looks great with no sprays at all -- and
it's cheap.

With the VM inkset, the spray is needed to hold down the pigments.  They
will rub right off otherwise.  More spray is needed with the VM inkset, and
getting it to look good is harder.

I don't know what paper looks best with the old vm inkset.  However, I'd
stay away from a high-gloss type.  The Semigloss and pearl finishes look
best.  

For the UT inksets, the best looking paper may be the Ilford Galerie Smooth
Pearl.  The most archival and second best might be Epson Premium Semigloss.
For cheap, quick prints Epson Glossy Photo paper is the standard.

Good luck with your system.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

____________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Goodwin [mailto:tgvoice@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 10:32 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] More inkset Q's

Hello Paul

On Wednesday, May 26, 2004, at 10:40  AM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Correct.  With the quads you'll need PK for glossy printing.  (Some 
> have
> used a post-printing spray with Eboni just like we used to have to do 
> with
> the old VM or Piezo systems.)

Do I take this to mean that it is then possible to print on glossy 
papers with the old VM inkset as long as you use a post-printing spray ?

If so, which sprays and paper combinations are best suited for this ?

Thanks
Tim




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
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guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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Hello Paul

Thanks very much for the information. I've got the VM inks in my 1270's 
CIS right now and it sounds as if I'd be better off just waiting until 
they run out and then upgrading to the UT inks.

But, just in case I should get adventurous, do you have any suggestions 
as to what spray may work best with the VM inks ?

Thanks
Tim

On Wednesday, May 26, 2004, at 03:09  PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Tim,
>
> Some people did (maybe still do) print on "glossy" paper with the VM 
> inkset.
> I think you'd be better off with the UT inkset, but in either case on 
> most
> papers the prints look better with a spray.
>
> With the UT inks and PK, the spray is to get rid of bronzing and
> differential glossiness.  These artifacts show up on the newest papers 
> only.
> The older Epson Glossy Photo Paper looks great with no sprays at all 
> -- and
> it's cheap.
>
> With the VM inkset, the spray is needed to hold down the pigments.  
> They
> will rub right off otherwise.  More spray is needed with the VM 
> inkset, and
> getting it to look good is harder.
>
> I don't know what paper looks best with the old vm inkset.  However, 
> I'd
> stay away from a high-gloss type.  The Semigloss and pearl finishes 
> look
> best.
>
> For the UT inksets, the best looking paper may be the Ilford Galerie 
> Smooth
> Pearl.  The most archival and second best might be Epson Premium 
> Semigloss.
> For cheap, quick prints Epson Glossy Photo paper is the standard.
>
> Good luck with your system.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
> For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
>
> ____________________
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Goodwin [mailto:tgvoice@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 10:32 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] More inkset Q's
>
> Hello Paul
>
> On Wednesday, May 26, 2004, at 10:40  AM, Paul Roark wrote:
>
>> Correct.  With the quads you'll need PK for glossy printing.  (Some
>> have
>> used a post-printing spray with Eboni just like we used to have to do
>> with
>> the old VM or Piezo systems.)
>
> Do I take this to mean that it is then possible to print on glossy
> papers with the old VM inkset as long as you use a post-printing spray 
> ?
>
> If so, which sprays and paper combinations are best suited for this ?
>
> Thanks
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
> same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
> from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and
> Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files 
> section:
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>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE 
> TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER 
> AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF 
> THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
> INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS 
> TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
> OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
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>
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>
>

Thanks for that Paul. I've got a good option on a second 2100 from a friend
who's selling his, so I guess I'd be leapfrogging over the 1290 in any case.
Hence my interest in the true septone systems on the other thread, of course.
All this is only relevant if I'm not satisfied with the UT7 results of course,
and I realise that's a big "if". The response to my call-out for sample prints
has been good so shortly I should be in an excellent position to judge.

Cheers,

-= mike =-

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
Sent: 26 May 2004 18:51
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: More inkset Q's


Mike,

>... the VM/1160 combo is only using three main black/grey levels 

Yes.

>-- and it still gets the smoothest result. 

In high magnification scans the highlights are smoother than the others Roy
measured.  The 1280 with VM has the smoothest I've ever measured.  I don't
think most are going to see any differences.

The 1280/90 also has smoother shadow tones, at least on matte paper.  (My
tests usually show the 1280 smoother on glossy also, although there may be
some papers and situations where the 1290 is less than perfect there.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/


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There is a lot of traffic on the list about trying this paper and that.

What I'd be interested in knowing is what paper do people consider their
favorite?

I understand that in some cases it depends on what you are using it for and how
you are printing it, but even if it's a qualified answer I think it would be
interesting to know.

I'll start the thread by stating that I print black and white using 'black only'
on an Epson 1270. The paper I use the most is Epson Matte Heavyweight. The price
is good and the image is OK, but I'd like something with a bit more permanence.

I tried a sample of Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and while I liked the image, the
surface flaked so badly I wouldn't think of using it.

Any comments?

Chuck Peacock

Hi:

I just starting to use the U2 set, so I don't have a "favorite" B&W 
paper yet. For archival color, Somerset Enhanced Photo Velvet is a 
fantastic fine art paper (somewhat expensive). Going to try some B&W 
on a few pieces to see how it looks.

Regards,

Jeff Lee

Hello Chuck,

>What I'd be interested in knowing is what paper do people consider
>their favorite?
>I print black and white using 'black only' on an Epson 1270. 
>I tried a sample of Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and while I liked the image,
>the surface flaked so badly I wouldn't think of using it.

I too like BO printing (on a 2200) and find PR too expensive and
flakey.  Hawk Mtn. has two very nice cotton papers, Merlin Smooth and
Condor BW.  I've not had any flaking with Condor, and only a tiny bit,
hardly ever, with Merlin.  They print carbon inks cooler than PR,
which is very nice - an alternative to all the warm papers.  The MIS
Eboni ink is really pretty on them.  On the Condor it looks truly
black, not dark brown.  Both have good Dmax, though a bit less than
PR, which is Dmax king.

There are other good papers, Premier Art Hot Press being one (warm
like PR), and there's supposed to be a new paper from England (I
think) that's supposed to be very nice with Dmax equal to PR (maybe
someone else can fill in on that).

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Chuck,

I use Moab Entrada papers a lot (inkjetgoodies.com).  They come in 
bright white (REALLY BRIGHT) and a "Natural" flavors.  Using Ebony, 
when I print a black patch and scan it, I get the it to read 93% on 
both Entrada papers, and also 93% on Photo Rag.  Now this is quick 
and dirty, and does not tell you the excat Dmax, but it shows that 
black density is similar on these papers.  The papers are less than 
1/2 the cost of Photo Rag.

It is a good idea to rub (brush) off the paper surface before 
printing for all "art" papers.

Hope this helps.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Peacock" 
<yahoolists@c...> wrote:
> There is a lot of traffic on the list about trying this paper and 
that.
> 
> What I'd be interested in knowing is what paper do people consider 
their
> favorite?
> 
> I understand that in some cases it depends on what you are using it 
for and how
> you are printing it, but even if it's a qualified answer I think it 
would be
> interesting to know.
> 
> I'll start the thread by stating that I print black and white 
using 'black only'
> on an Epson 1270. The paper I use the most is Epson Matte 
Heavyweight. The price
> is good and the image is OK, but I'd like something with a bit more 
permanence.
> 
> I tried a sample of Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and while I liked the 
image, the

> surface flaked so badly I wouldn't think of using it.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> Chuck Peacock

Hello Shilesh

>I use Moab Entrada papers a lot (inkjetgoodies.com).  They come in 
>bright white (REALLY BRIGHT) and a "Natural" flavors.  Using Ebony, 
>when I print a black patch and scan it, I get the it to read 93% on 
>both Entrada papers, and also 93% on Photo Rag.  

What is the surface like on Entrada?  Also, with Eboni, how does it
compare to PR on the warm/cool range?  Thanks.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

>Hi all,

So...tried searching the archives, but it looks like the last mention of 
Permajet Alpha in the US was still that "things are moving along but not 
available yet."  Is this still the case?

Also, I noticed that there are 2 kinds of Moab Entrada now - "bright white" 
(with OBA's) and "natural" (without OBA's).  I don't believe I had both 
options last time I purchased it, so I'm not sure which one I used last 
time (I did like the results, though!).  Anyone have any comments?

I actually have someone interested in buying some prints off me, and the 
possibility of needing BIG prints has come up.  I would likely opt for 
rolls on my 1280 to get the desired size.  Since EAM, as far as I can tell, 
doesn't have a roll that'll fit my 1280, I'm looking at other options.

thanks,
allan


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