Digital BW, The Print

Dear All

I have a bit of a tale here about clogs, and the conclusions I have come to.
I would be interested to hear peoples' comments on whether these conclusions
make sense, or if they are total garbage!

I have an Epson 1290 printer with MIS UT2 in it, and it produced top quality
pics. One day in mid May (I think) I didn't use it for about a week and it
developed a clog on the Lm colour. The symptoms were: not being able to get
a good nozzle check on the Lm most of the time, but then I could, but a
print of the purge6 would result in the Lm colour starting fine but then
fading and banding horribly.

I tried (in this order): 

1) repeated Epson head cleaning interspersed with purge 6 printing every 3
cleaning cycles (I probably did about 10 in one day)

2) putting Epson T007 & T009 cartridges in and trying 1)

3) purging the MIS cartridges of foamy ink by drawing the ink through the
exit ports with a syringe and the bottom fill adaptor. Trying 1) with the
MIS cartridges in again.

4) I tried 2) but with increasingly long waiting times.

5) MIS cleaning fluid on the parking pad.

6) MIS Direct inject trick.

None seemed to make any noticeable improvement.

All this was until this week, and I was trying a clean with the T007 and
T009 (now cheap versions as I was spending a fortune on Epson ones). The
clogging was getting worse it seemed and I could not get much of the Lm
colour to print in a nozzle check, and if it did it was fuzzy and faint.

I finally gave up hope on Saturday and had what I thought was a brainwave. I
had all the parts to build a new CIS, so what if I got rid of the Lm colour
completely and put the Lm ink in the yellow position?

I looked at the sepia curves, and the yellow did indeed kick in when the Lm
did in the more neutral curves, so I thought I could use the sepia curves
and get the more neutral effects. I didn't use the sepia ink much anyway,
and having a printer that did more than occupy desk space and gather dust
seemed attractive - so I didn't think I had much to lose by trying it. 

I spent most of Sunday building the CIS cartridges, but while I was waiting
for the glue to dry, I was reading around and found a page that recommended
the MIS direct inject solution of forcing MIS cleaning fluid into the
printer head "spike" to hopefully clear a clog. This page went a bit further
in that it recommended pushing some fluid in, then drawing it out. Since I
had a plan to do away with the Lm position anyway I thought it wouldn't
hurt. I tried this and a lot of colour came out, together with a LOT of air
bubbles. The page said to finish on a push, which I did. 

I put the T007 & T009 cartridges in and the improvement was dramatic. Not
perfect, but a quantum leap from what I had been experiencing. I printed a
purge 6, and got a perfect start, but it tailed off again. I tried some more
cleaning cycles (using the SSC service utility on powerful clean) and could
nearly always get back to a good nozzle check, and it was a long time since
that happened. Heartened by these improvements, I tried the same direct
inject procedure again last night, and the nozzle checks seemed to get
better quicker. Still no perfect purge 6 though.

Tonight I came in and tried a nozzle check (fine) and a purge6. Also fine. I
then tried another purge6. Again fine! Its been ages since this happened. I
tried an A3 colour print with the aftermarket T007 & T009 cartridges. This
was also fine.

I don't think I am out of the woods yet, as I have not put the UT2 CIS back
in, but the improvement using the direct inject push pull trick was
dramatic.

From this I conclude that I will not leave the CIS in the printer, but put
it in when I need it. I will put a T007 and T009 in when the printer is not
used - given this experience, this seems to avoid clogging as they are dye
inks, which were what the printer was designed for. I have an 1160 with
Lyson SG dye based inks in, which spends long periods not being used, but it
has never clogged.

So anyway I never tried my idea of putting the Lm ink in the yellow position
and using the sepia curves to get neutral prints. However I reckon it would
have a reasonable chance of working, and would be a lot better than having a
printer that didn't do anything. What do people think?

Hope this helps someone - I am merely posting my experience and what
(hopefully) worked for me. Anyone that tries anything here does so at their
own risk. I had nothing to lose though!

Sorry this was long, and hope it helps someone. I thought my printer would
end up on the rubbish tip. But it seems to have risen from the dead!

Steve Taylor

Hi Steve,

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Taylor"
<ts01@b...> wrote:
> I have a bit of a tale here about clogs, and the conclusions I have 
> come to. I would be interested to hear peoples' comments on whether 
> these conclusions make sense, or if they are total garbage!

Thanks for sharing your tale with us. I've been there ... many times
... so I know the feeling.

> From this I conclude that I will not leave the CIS in the printer, 
> but put it in when I need it.

While you might have done the right thing in performing the foam purge
per MIS's instruction, I think they left out an important point. You
probably did such a thorough job of drawing foam out that the critical
vacuum break inside the cartridge is now filled with ink. If this was
indeed the case it would be impossible for the printhead to draw a
solid column of ink through. Of course this is not always true because
not all printheads and CIS plumbing are created the same. The solid
block of ink either prevents ink from being drawn into an air-filled
printhead, or causes drips if the head is well primed.

You might want to disconnect the tubing from the top of the cartridges
and let ink run back to the bottles. All the way back because you need 
a nice big vacuum break. It prevents ink from siphoning back to the
bottles so you can let your printers sit idle for a long time. I have
5 CIS and they easily sit idle for months without any problems.

--nick

Hi Nick and Steve,
I seem to have all the same problems as Steve with my CFS and have done most of what he has done - in fact, at various times, all his procedures. But things have got worse. Much worse.

I have gone from having one chamber (yellow) that would only give a clear nozzle check after at least three cleaning cycles, to, after cycling the ink through, now having now four chambers not working.

I have battled and battled to get MIS inks to work on my 1200, but it just gets worse and worse and I feel like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall. 

It's a great system, works on great papers, is archival, can give sublime warm tones ... but, for me,  trying to get the system to be reliable has been an exercise in futility - and, a huge drain on time and financial resources for minimal output (I'm sick with CFIDS and live on an invalid benefit ... photography is my lifeline).

I feel (or hope) that inkjet printing is still in its infancy and that reliable pigment quadtone systems will emerge. To print on a variety of papers, you need pigment inks - and the only other option is the Ultra Chrome system - with expensive, coloured, not quadtone inks .... I'm hoping that in the next couple of years a better solution will emerge.

What has kept me trying the MIS inks is the number of disciples it has. And the results are fantastic if you can get the system going. And many manage to coax the system along with rapturous enthusiasm. That baffles me, but has so far kept me trying. In the meantime, my HP 7660 is getting a lot of use ... with more expensive inks.

I fear that my ability to persevere is running out now. Sadly, my box of Photo Rag is left on the shelf.

I do have one question: of all the printers for which MIS inks are made, has any one been found to be the most reliable? (Although, after being stung and spending so much on ink so far, I'm reluctant to push this uphill much longer.)

Thanks for listening to my complaints - I just had to get it out of my system.

Thanks to all of you who have educated me through this list. It is a fantastic resource. 

More power to you all,
Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "Experience is a great advantage.  The problem is that when 
   you get the experience, you're too damned old to do anything 
   about it."
   --Jimmy Connors

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
Smallfield <r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
> Hi Nick and Steve,
> I seem to have all the same problems as Steve with my CFS and have
done most of what he has done - in fact, at various times, all his
procedures. But things have got worse. Much worse.
> 
> I have gone from having one chamber (yellow) that would only give a
clear nozzle check after at least three cleaning cycles, to, after
cycling the ink through, now having now four chambers not working.
> 
> I have battled and battled to get MIS inks to work on my 1200, but
it just gets worse and worse and I feel like I'm hitting my head
against a brick wall. 
> 
> It's a great system, works on great papers, is archival, can give
sublime warm tones ... but, for me,  trying to get the system to be
reliable has been an exercise in futility - and, a huge drain on time
and financial resources for minimal output (I'm sick with CFIDS and
live on an invalid benefit ... photography is my lifeline).
> 
> I feel (or hope) that inkjet printing is still in its infancy and
that reliable pigment quadtone systems will emerge. To print on a
variety of papers, you need pigment inks - and the only other option
is the Ultra Chrome system - with expensive, coloured, not quadtone
inks .... I'm hoping that in the next couple of years a better
solution will emerge.
> 
> What has kept me trying the MIS inks is the number of disciples it
has. And the results are fantastic if you can get the system going.
And many manage to coax the system along with rapturous enthusiasm.
That baffles me, but has so far kept me trying. In the meantime, my HP
7660 is getting a lot of use ... with more expensive inks.
> 
> I fear that my ability to persevere is running out now. Sadly, my
box of Photo Rag is left on the shelf.
> 
> I do have one question: of all the printers for which MIS inks are
made, has any one been found to be the most reliable? (Although, after
being stung and spending so much on ink so far, I'm reluctant to push
this uphill much longer.)
> 
> Thanks for listening to my complaints - I just had to get it out of
my system.
> 
> Thanks to all of you who have educated me through this list. It is a
fantastic resource. 
> 
> More power to you all,
> Richard
> --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> 
>    "Experience is a great advantage.  The problem is that when 
>    you get the experience, you're too damned old to do anything 
>    about it."
>    --Jimmy Connors

Let me add my two cents. I was plagued by clogged nozzled, despite
cleaning and nozzle check cycles. I am using MIS Eboni inks on an
Epson 1280. For reasons too complicated (embarrassing, too) I replaced
the printer. Now the problems have totallty disappeared. This leads me
to wonder whether clogging problems are more a function of the printer
heads than the ink.

This clogging issue is it specific to a certain Epson model, or is it
generally true to their range?
I have a Canon i950, OEM inks, and even with moderate use, maybe
once/month, it seems to work fine.
Before this one I had an Epson 980 I think [or was it 890?], that was
a catastrophe in terms of clogging! Even if it was used far more than
this Canon, every single time I had to print something, I had to go
through the cleaning cycle to get a decent print. At that time I
remember reading comments on other lists about then current Epsons,
and it appeared like a lot of people had this problem, especially
with intermitent usage.
I wonder those on this list that don't have this issue, how often
they use their printers?

Ara G.



--- adolphamster <dolph@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
> Smallfield <r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
> > Hi Nick and Steve,
> > I seem to have all the same problems as Steve with my CFS and
> have
> done most of what he has done - in fact, at various times, all his
> procedures. But things have got worse. Much worse.
> > 


		
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well, i'm pretty sure I have never had a clog. i have an epson 1200 and 
a 1280. I just got the 1280, and have gone thru i set of stock ink, and 
two sets of MIS UT2 inks so far. On the 1200 I would go for maybe a 
week or two at the most without printing something. I used lyson 
quadblacks for a long time on the 1200, (which work well) and also 
lyson small gamuts (Which I never got satisfaction from by the way) and 
now I am using the 1200 for stock epson ink color and black-only. The 
1200 never was a pain except that with Black-only, sometimes there 
would be very slight microscopic lines in the medium dark areas. One 
thing I did fairly often was use a cleaning cartridge on the 1200. I 
dont know why except it was sitting there so why not use it. The 
cleaning cartridges seem to last a long time. I just put tape over the 
air holes and the bottom hole. A month later, it's still wet and works 
fine. That is a lyson cleaning cartridge. DM
On Aug 5, 2004, at 9:15 AM, Ara wrote:

> This clogging issue is it specific to a certain Epson model, or is it
>  generally true to their range?
>  I have a Canon i950, OEM inks, and even with moderate use, maybe
>  once/month, it seems to work fine.
>  Before this one I had an Epson 980 I think [or was it 890?], that was
>  a catastrophe in terms of clogging! Even if it was used far more than
>  this Canon, every single time I had to print something, I had to go
>  through the cleaning cycle to get a decent print. At that time I
>  remember reading comments on other lists about then current Epsons,
>  and it appeared like a lot of people had this problem, especially
>  with intermitent usage.
>  I wonder those on this list that don't have this issue, how often
>  they use their printers?
>
>  Ara G.
>
>
>
>  --- adolphamster <dolph@...> wrote:
>
>  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
>  > Smallfield <r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
>  > > Hi Nick and Steve,
>  > > I seem to have all the same problems as Steve with my CFS and
>  > have
>  > done most of what he has done - in fact, at various times, all his
>  > procedures. But things have got worse. Much worse.
>  > >
>
>
>  ����� �����
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Hi Richard,

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard 
Smallfield <r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
> I seem to have all the same problems as Steve with my CFS and have 
> done most of what he has done - in fact, at various times, all his 
> procedures.... I do have one question: of all the printers for 
> which MIS inks are made, has any one been found to be the most 
> reliable? (Although, after being stung and spending so much on ink 
> so far, I'm reluctant to push this uphill much longer.)

I don't think ink is a problem because I've used everything from 
(MIS) VM, VM-Sepia, Glossy Pigments, UT, FS, FSN, etc., on Epson 740, 
1160, and C80 without any problems. However the following are main 
reasons for missing nozzles or persistent clogs in my experience.

1. The vacuum break. This usually happens after about a year or two 
of use and you get foam build up in the cartridge. I found that the 
foam removal procedure can easily lead to the complete removal of the 
much needed vacuum break. After a foam removal procedure I always 
disconnect the tubing and let ink return all the way back to the 
bottles then reattach them.

2. The seals between the cartridge outlet ports and the printhead 
inlets. If you have a leak here the head cleaning pump cannot pull 
ink into the printhead and you end up losing all nozzles. Try 
reseating the cartridge with missing nozzles. I have never owned a 
1280 so I don't know what its cartridges look like and how they stay 
in place. For the 1160 and 740 I have to modify the friction pads on 
the cartridge sides so they sit more securely in the carriage. The 
1160 and 740 CIS installation procedure requires that the latching 
mechanism be removed. Improperly installed friction pads can cause 
the cartridges to have too much freeplay and will result in the seals 
not seating properly. The C80 still has latches so this is not a 
problem.

These are the two main things that I always watch out for in my 5 CIS 
systems, 4 of which were built from MIS parts.

I hope you can solve this problem and enjoy printing again,
--nick

At 06:36 AM Friday 8/6/04, you wrote:
>well, i'm pretty sure I have never had a clog. i have an epson 1200 and 
>a 1280. I just got the 1280, and have gone thru i set of stock ink, and 
>two sets of MIS UT2 inks so far. On the 1200 I would go for maybe a 
>week or two at the most without printing something. I used lyson 
>quadblacks for a long time on the 1200, (which work well) and also 
>lyson small gamuts (Which I never got satisfaction from by the way) and 
>now I am using the 1200 for stock epson ink color and black-only.

How did the Lyson quad blacks hold up as far as lightfastness goes? Are there any test results on the web for them?

I've been tempted, but MIS are very lightfast and I only want to depart from them if I simply can't get them to work.

And I simply can't get them to work!!

Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." 
   --Will Durant

At 07:18 AM Friday 8/6/04, you wrote:
>1. The vacuum break. This usually happens after about a year or two 
>of use and you get foam build up in the cartridge. I found that the 
>foam removal procedure can easily lead to the complete removal of the 
>much needed vacuum break. After a foam removal procedure I always 
>disconnect the tubing and let ink return all the way back to the 
>bottles then reattach them.

Thanks so much for your help. But I can't see how to remove the tubing as it is very securely attached to the cart.

thanks,
Rich

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." 
   --Will Durant

Richard, I am very impressed by your photography and your website in 
general. Very good. As to the lyson quadblacks, They are dye, but lyson 
says they are archival. Check out their website (lyson.com) The trouble 
with them is that they are only one tone, and on some papers that tone 
is a bit weird. Olive colored kind-of. But they were more of a pain to 
get to work I thought. i did a LOT of trial and error, and the profiles 
they had were really bad. MIS which I just switched to, is good right 
out of the box. Really good actually, and so far no clogs. I cant 
remember what printer you have, but maybe it's the Continuous flow 
setup. Did you try some cartridges just to see if they would work? I 
dont print that much, so I use carts. Once again, Your pictures are 
awesome....DM
On Aug 5, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Richard Smallfield wrote:

>
>  How did the Lyson quad blacks hold up as far as lightfastness goes? 
> Are there any test results on the web for them?
>
>  I've been tempted, but MIS are very lightfast and I only want to 
> depart from them if I simply can't get them to work.
>
>  And I simply can't get them to work!!
>
>  Richard
>
>  --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
>
>  �� "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance."
>  �� --Will Durant
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE� �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In my own "Foyer Test" (where a mounted print has been 
exposed to varying amounts of daylight, and certain extremes of 
temperature and humidity for a bit under three years), a print 
created with Lyson Quad Black Neutral inks on EEM has held up 
very well.  And these ins have been well-behaved in my Epson 
1160.  All I'm waiting for now is my sample pack of Lyson 
Darkroom Glossy and Matte papers to arrive.

- Barrett

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard 
Smallfield <r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
> At 06:36 AM Friday 8/6/04, you wrote:
> >well, i'm pretty sure I have never had a clog. i have an epson 
1200 and 
> >a 1280. I just got the 1280, and have gone thru i set of stock 
ink, and 
> >two sets of MIS UT2 inks so far. On the 1200 I would go for 
maybe a 
> >week or two at the most without printing something. I used 
lyson 
> >quadblacks for a long time on the 1200, (which work well) 
and also 
> >lyson small gamuts (Which I never got satisfaction from by 
the way) and 
> >now I am using the 1200 for stock epson ink color and 
black-only.
> 
> How did the Lyson quad blacks hold up as far as lightfastness 
goes? Are there any test results on the web for them?
> 
> I've been tempted, but MIS are very lightfast and I only want to 
depart from them if I simply can't get them to work.

> 
> And I simply can't get them to work!!
> 
> Richard
> 
> --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> 
>    "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." 
>    --Will Durant

Hi,
thanks for all the accolades!!!! :) My head is swelling. (The site needs updating badly, however.)

I did refilling of carts for a long time and that got less and less reliable. So I got the CFS. Same thing.

Maybe just buying filled MIS carts is easier - but a lot more expensive.

(The Epson carts worked ok.)

thanks,
Richard

At 11:40 AM Friday 8/6/04, you wrote:
>Richard, I am very impressed by your photography and your website in 
>general. Very good. As to the lyson quadblacks, They are dye, but lyson 
>says they are archival. Check out their website (lyson.com) The trouble 
>with them is that they are only one tone, and on some papers that tone 
>is a bit weird. Olive colored kind-of. But they were more of a pain to 
>get to work I thought. i did a LOT of trial and error, and the profiles 
>they had were really bad. MIS which I just switched to, is good right 
>out of the box. Really good actually, and so far no clogs. I cant 
>remember what printer you have, but maybe it's the Continuous flow 
>setup. Did you try some cartridges just to see if they would work? I 
>dont print that much, so I use carts. Once again, Your pictures are 
>awesome....DM

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "Economics is extremely useful as a form of employment 
   for economists."
   --John Kenneth Galbraith

Hi Richard,

> Message: 23        
>    Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:21:28 +1200
>    From: Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...>
> Thanks so much for your help. But I can't see how to remove the
tubing 
> as it is very securely attached to the cart.

Yes, one has to be very careful not to damage the mini barb fitting.
I'd use a small pair of pliers on the left hand to grab onto the head
of the fitting, and a pair of needle nose on the right hand to grab
the tubing - stay far away enough from the fitting lest you
accidentally grab its barbed end inside the tubing. Now gently use the
right hand thumb to push against the left hand or the pliers handle.
This helps you separate the tubing from the fitting without exerting
any pressure which might cause the epoxy to come loose (if it does you
can just epoxy it again). You can certainly manipulate the tools any
way you wish as long as you don't damage the fitting. It should pop
out fairly easily. Do the reverse to reinsert the tubing.

However before you do this, get a set of known good non CIS cartridges
and get good nozzle checks before reconnecting your CIS system. With
the CIS cartridges outside the printer you might find it easier to
perform the tubing detachment. Make sure to also clamp the tubings
before taking the cartridges out of the printer unless they are of the
self sealing type.

Keep trying Rich, but first use non-CIS cartridges to get good nozzle
checks so you have some peace of mind then proceed to troubleshoot the
CIS.

Good luck,
--nick

Hi adolphamster

                          Sorry, I did not get it clearly.    Did you have 
problems with the 1280 and the Eboni or with the printer you had previously 
and the Eboni?.  (Am just about to buy a 1280 to use with the UT2 which 
uses Eboni black I understand)

                        Thanks,  Alex


>Let me add my two cents. I was plagued by clogged nozzled, despite
>cleaning and nozzle check cycles. I am using MIS Eboni inks on an
>Epson 1280. For reasons too complicated (embarrassing, too) I replaced
>the printer. Now the problems have totallty disappeared. This leads me
>to wonder whether clogging problems are more a function of the printer
>heads than the ink.


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