Digital BW, The Print

Hi everyone

Read alot about BO printing on this forum so decided to have a go. 
I've compared side by side my BO prints with prints using all the 
inks and I must admit I'm rather impressed with the BO prints. The BO 
prints have better dmax, and have something about them. Digital Tri-X 
is a good description. However I noticed that in the shadow areas 
there is fine banding. This spoils the print for me. I'm using a 1160 
with MIS UT inks and eboni black printing on EAM paper. I have 
checked the printer head alignment and nozzle check is perfect. Is 
there a way to reduce banding or is this a product of using a printer 
that can only print at 1440 dpi. 

Peter

It may just be your printer is not perfect.  I have an 1160 that I
keep around for color dye-print snapshots and such using the Epson OEM
inks now.  I used to use it with MIS Full Spectrum Neutral inks using
Randall curves.  It did a nice job but I did have banding issues from
time to time and sometimes realignments and nozzle cleanings would
help, other times not but it would eventually get better.  Since
becoming a die-hard BO fan with MIS Eboni ink in my 2200 I do not use
my 1160 for B&W anymore.  Out of curiosity I printed something BO with
the 1160 not long ago and it really paled in comparison to the results
with my 2200, or BO on my 870 for that matter.  Some have said they
get good results with their 1160 BO I have not found that.  Plus it's
been said, back when the Cone plug-in was the main game in town, that
some 1160's are simply not "perfect" enough in head alignment and give
inconsistent banding (Jon Cone said it) even though they give what
appear to be good nozzle checks.  Even now, using my 1160 for dye
color prints minor banding comes and goes.  But I get such nice color
from this printer on Epson Premium Luster that that it is great for my
family snaps.

If you do not need over letter-size and really like BO consider a used
870 they can be gotten really cheap on eBay ($20-40 now).  Or get a
2200 and go BO and now also QTR!

Richard

----- Original Message -----
From: bwbonkers <peterdlevis@...>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:27:15 -0000
Subject: [Digital BW] BO Printing - banding
To: digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com

Hi everyone

Read alot about BO printing on this forum so decided to have a go. 
I've compared side by side my BO prints with prints using all the 
inks and I must admit I'm rather impressed with the BO prints. The BO 
prints have better dmax, and have something about them. Digital Tri-X 
is a good description. However I noticed that in the shadow areas 
there is fine banding. This spoils the print for me. I'm using a 1160 
with MIS UT inks and eboni black printing on EAM paper. I have 
checked the printer head alignment and nozzle check is perfect. Is 
there a way to reduce banding or is this a product of using a printer 
that can only print at 1440 dpi. 

Peter



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Hi
Thanks for the reply. My banding is very minor and only shows up in 
shadow areas. After comparing the same print I noticed that the BO 
print was printing a little lighter than the all ink one. Having read 
CJs article on BO printing decided to change the printer profile from 
same as source to 15% dot grain(working space was 20% dot grain) to 
darken the print. Result a perfect match for overall density and with 
the shadow area a little darker, reduced banding in this area. 
Lighter areas such as the sky show no signs of banding. So my 
question is why is there minor banding in darker areas only. This 
problem only effects certain prints - depends on content. 

The prints now look better.

Any ideas anyone.

Peter

Hello Peter,

>why is there minor banding in darker areas only. This 
>problem only effects certain prints - depends on content. 
>Any ideas anyone.

I've seen lots of prints from just about every system in use, and they
almost all have some fine dither banding to one degree or another.  It
seems to be from a combination of the driver and the individual
printer.  

On the driver side, it always seems to be associated with certain
densities or Zones.  My theory is that the dither pattern produced by
the driver for those zones just happens to line things up in lines
rather than randomly.   It does appear to vary from one image to
another, as well, and it may have to do with the amount of grain
that's resolved in the image (if it's a scanned neg).  It seems like
the driver is trying to print the grain (or something).

As for the printer, some people report worse problems than others.  On
my 2200 I was able to reduce it by doing an alignment with a setting
of 1.  I tried every setting and that had the best result, with the
banding no longer visible without magnification.  I have seen BO
prints from two different 4000s (the 4000 has a more random dither
pattern and produces the best BO prints I've seen so far - at least
one did).  One had no dither banding and the other one had as much or
more than my 2200.  So printer alignment definitely has a part to
play.

A friend who had a 1280 couldn't make BO prints that matched my old
870 prints.  When I sold it last year, someone bought it who already
had one and wanted another.  He reported that mine made better prints
than his.  There have been many reports here in the forum of printers
that performed poorly compared to others, so they definitely vary.  

So I think it is unrealistic to hope for prints without any dither
banding.  It just seems to go with the territory.  At least for now.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clinton

In msg 47 544 you replied to Peter:
" ... On
> my 2200 I was able to reduce it [i.e. (micro)banding] by doing an
alignment with a setting
> of 1.  I tried every setting and that had the best result, with the
> banding no longer visible without magnification.  I have seen BO
> prints from two different 4000s (the 4000 has a more random dither
> pattern and produces the best BO prints I've seen so far - at least
> one did).  One had no dither banding and the other one had as much
or
> more than my 2200.  So printer alignment definitely has a part to
> play."

I think you are perfectly right: Good BO printing is dependent on
variables well within the limits of tolerance for "normal usage" of
the printers being discussed on this forum.

Question: Can you enlighten me/us about this part of your info: 

" On
 my 2200 I was able to reduce it [i.e. (micro)banding] by doing an
alignment with a setting
of 1"

Thanks

Chatzebussi

Clayton Jones wrote:


> As for the printer, some people report worse problems than others.  On
> my 2200 I was able to reduce it by doing an alignment with a setting
> of 1.  I tried every setting and that had the best result, with the
> banding no longer visible without magnification.  I have seen BO
> prints from two different 4000s (the 4000 has a more random dither
> pattern and produces the best BO prints I've seen so far - at least
> one did).  One had no dither banding and the other one had as much or
> more than my 2200.  So printer alignment definitely has a part to
> play.
> 
> A friend who had a 1280 couldn't make BO prints that matched my old
> 870 prints.  When I sold it last year, someone bought it who already
> had one and wanted another.  He reported that mine made better prints
> than his.  There have been many reports here in the forum of printers
> that performed poorly compared to others, so they definitely vary.  
> 
> So I think it is unrealistic to hope for prints without any dither
> banding.  It just seems to go with the territory.  At least for now.

Clayton,

Not a BO user but:

I'm still convinced that much of those BO banding issues can be 
diminshed to zero if the black ink can be squirted from many 
nozzles. The 4000 does a good job with its 180 nozzles and so 
does the 10000 with 180 nozzles and the 8 stroke setting.

With QTR it must be possible to use all the heads of say a C84 
with black and reduce the amount of ink on all heads where 
needed. Like with quads the printer then can't make color prints 
anymore and you need more than the Epson driver.  Might be a 
small price to solve the banding issues. Especially when the 
driver allows linearisation as well.

Ernst

Hello Chatzebussi,

> my 2200 I was able to reduce it [i.e. (micro)banding] by doing an
>alignment with a setting of 1"

The head alignment utility prints out a series of overlapped lines and
asks you to enter the number of the best matched pair.  It then
adjusts something which is supposed to optimize the head alignment.  I
did an experiment one day by choosing each number then making a print.
 I found that as the numbers got smaller there was continually less
dither banding.

BTW, I use the term "dither banding" rather than "micro banding"
because the latter seems to cover both kinds of banding.  The other
kind is that caused by a clogged nozzle.  Dither banding explicitely
means the kind _not_ caused by a clogged nozzle.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I still think someone with a 2200, 4000, or any other 7 ink double K
printer with QTR interested in BO printing shoud try running the light
k parallel with the K ink. Shouldn't be hard to set up at all with
QTR. It should still have the visual qualities of BO printing, with a
more complex dither and less chance of banding because of two inks.
It'll probably be warmer, but once you get it there you could easily
start playing the LM and MC as slight cooling toners. Since K still
runs through the entire scale, it'll still have that look, but maybe
subdued a touch, the presence of the other inks will probably be
slight and not detract.
Tyler

Tyler,

I used a similar approach with QTR to get a neutral profile for RC 
papers where it is difficult to cool down the very warm PK ink using 
the partitioned method.  I just ran the LK, LC, and LM inks in parallel 
across the scale without any partitioning.  Analogous to BO printing, 
but without using any black ink.  The neutralized LK alone has enough 
density to give a reasonable dmax without using any PK and the tone is 
consistent across the scale.

Carl

On Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 12:26  PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> I still think someone with a 2200, 4000, or any other 7 ink double K
> printer with QTR interested in BO printing shoud try running the light
> k parallel with the K ink. Shouldn't be hard to set up at all with
> QTR. It should still have the visual qualities of BO printing, with a
> more complex dither and less chance of banding because of two inks.
> It'll probably be warmer, but once you get it there you could easily
> start playing the LM and MC as slight cooling toners. Since K still
> runs through the entire scale, it'll still have that look, but maybe
> subdued a touch, the presence of the other inks will probably be
> slight and not detract.
> Tyler
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
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Hello Ernst,

>I'm still convinced that much of those BO banding issues can be 
>diminshed to zero if the black ink can be squirted from many 
>nozzles. 

I can't argue with the idea, not having tried it, but I wonder,
because last summer when I did the analysis of the tech print exchange
one of the things I graded on was dither banding, and even included a
report for each print on which sections of the ramp it appeared. 
Every system was represented in that exchange and they all had it to
some degree (one Septone print had none, but others did have some).  I
have also seen it in BW prints from my 2200 made with the full UC ink
set. 

>With QTR it must be possible to use all the heads of say a C84 
>with black and reduce the amount of ink on all heads where 
>needed. 

In a recent print exchange I received a QTR/Grayscale print that has
some of the worst dither banding I've seen.  So it would seem that
having all nozzles firing doesn't seem to be related...but it was also
done with an "Epson Photo EX" - I don't know what that is, could it
have caused it?  

Flash! - I just now rec'd in the mail a QTR-XP/2200/UC print that has
some very minor DB.


>the 4000 does a good job with its 180 nozzles 

There also seems to be two different kinds of DB.  Carl Schofield sent
me some 4000 BO prints that had no DB throughout the print (covering
all Zones) except for a barely visible amount (with 8x loupe) about
3/4 inch along one end (either the start or the end of the print, but
only on one end).  This DB also crosses all Zones, which means it is
more likely from a physical cause such as paper feed, etc.  Much DB
appears only in certain Zones, which would seem to be software
related.

I also received a 4000 BO print from someone else that has quite a
lot.   I just went back through a dozen prints from a BO exchange and
found two without any DB (both from 2200s) and three more with
miniscule amounts in a few places.

At least we know it's possible not to have any dither banding with BO.
What do you make of all this?

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> wrote:
> Tyler,
> 
> I used a similar approach with QTR to get a neutral profile for RC 
> papers where it is difficult to cool down the very warm PK ink using 
> the partitioned method.  I just ran the LK, LC, and LM inks in parallel 
> across the scale without any partitioning.  Analogous to BO printing, 
> but without using any black ink.  The neutralized LK alone has enough 
> density to give a reasonable dmax without using any PK and the tone is 
> consistent across the scale.

Clever, pretty cool what these new drivers will let us play with. All
it takes is an inquisitive mind. I recall Culbertson doing some
straight CMY tests with similar richness without K ink.
Also worth noting your setup probably used up to 300% total ink
without problems (I presume). Another example of letting that ink go
down, don't be stingy with it!
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Ernst,
> 
> >I'm still convinced that much of those BO banding issues can be 
> >diminshed to zero if the black ink can be squirted from many 
> >nozzles. 
> 
> I can't argue with the idea, not having tried it, but I wonder...

Clayton and Ernst, I don't know how helpful this will be but...
I have to first say I haven't used QTR for many months, an old beta
version. But I noticed with it, and with SudioPrint with certain
dither/quality settings, that a ramp of individual inks could show a
linear dither pattern at specific percentages, and it would move from
random (aprox) through the linear pattern, and back to random as tones
gradated through that tonal zone.
Things may have changed, but Roy and I discussed it briefly back then.
This rarely shows up in images with photographic detail, and/or with
multiple inks present dithering together at different percentages.
But, with something like BO, or even a heavily partitioned quad
workflow, this could easily be revealed, particularly in smooth tonal
areas of the right value.
I have no solution, nor am sure it's related to your discussion. My
suspicion is that it is driver specific, has to do with dither. Roy
would certainly know more, I believe many complex things are happening
with the dithering of an individual channel, not only is dot spacing
changing with value, but dot size is as well, along with other issues
like stochastic, diffusion, etc.. How perfectly a driver accomplishes
all that may be relevant.
Tyler

Clayton Jones wrote:
> Hello Ernst,
> 
> 
>>I'm still convinced that much of those BO banding issues can be 
>>diminshed to zero if the black ink can be squirted from many 
>>nozzles. 
> 
> 
> I can't argue with the idea, not having tried it, but I wonder,
> because last summer when I did the analysis of the tech print exchange
> one of the things I graded on was dither banding, and even included a
> report for each print on which sections of the ramp it appeared. 
> Every system was represented in that exchange and they all had it to
> some degree (one Septone print had none, but others did have some).  I
> have also seen it in BW prints from my 2200 made with the full UC ink
> set. 
> 
> 
>>With QTR it must be possible to use all the heads of say a C84 
>>with black and reduce the amount of ink on all heads where 
>>needed. 
> 
> 
> In a recent print exchange I received a QTR/Grayscale print that has
> some of the worst dither banding I've seen.  So it would seem that
> having all nozzles firing doesn't seem to be related...but it was also
> done with an "Epson Photo EX" - I don't know what that is, could it
> have caused it?  
> 
> Flash! - I just now rec'd in the mail a QTR-XP/2200/UC print that has
> some very minor DB.

All workflows that partition the greyscale on the available grey 
inks.  True there's overlap but less than twice the head nozzle 
count. Toner may add to that sometimes. You didn't get samples 
that either used 4 heads for black or had the black accompanied 
by the grey of the UC over the entire range like Tyler suggests. 
In all partioned workflows there are no overlaps on the lightest 
grey and the black or the last gets a small boost from the next 
grey (that's what I have done on the  Wasatch SoftRIP curves as 
the 9000 doesn't print a BO without some banding). On top of that 
the nozzle count per head is on all the models 1/2 or less of the 
4000 and 10X00 headnozzles.  I guess the 4000 also replaces 
failing nozzles in its printing like the 10X00 does.

In the early 6 head Piezography arrangement were two heads busy 
with the same task if I remember it correctly. But at that time 
the heads were even more limited in nozzle count.

>>the 4000 does a good job with its 180 nozzles 
> 
> 
> There also seems to be two different kinds of DB.  Carl Schofield sent
> me some 4000 BO prints that had no DB throughout the print (covering
> all Zones) except for a barely visible amount (with 8x loupe) about
> 3/4 inch along one end (either the start or the end of the print, but
> only on one end).  This DB also crosses all Zones, which means it is
> more likely from a physical cause such as paper feed, etc.  Much DB
> appears only in certain Zones, which would seem to be software
> related.

Often caused by a head that starts. As I explained to Antonis 
some time ago it can be handy to print a CcMmYK bar at the edge 
of the paper which starts earlier than the print and ends later 
to get/keep the head open in time. With more prints after another 
on the roll and lots of margins or the greys distributed unevenly 
along the printrun the chance that nozzles fall away can be 
diminished by a bar like that. Antonis used a small greyscale bar 
along the length so all the channels were busy. I've used it for 
years on 9000's with Generation 4.  As I understand it there are 
now RIPs that have it built in.

> 
> I also received a 4000 BO print from someone else that has quite a
> lot.   I just went back through a dozen prints from a BO exchange and
> found two without any DB (both from 2200s) and three more with
> miniscule amounts in a few places.
> 
> At least we know it's possible not to have any dither banding with BO.
> What do you make of all this?

I would love to see a C84 with an all black cartridge driven by 
QTR.  BO certainly has its qualities but can't depend on our luck 
with printers.

Ernst

Tyler,

I ran the LK at 100%, but limited LC and LM to get a neutral tone.  The 
wide format printers (4000, 7600, etc) put out a lot more ink so the 
limits would have to be adjusted down for them to avoid flooding the 
paper with ink.  Here is the "LK Only" profile for the 2200 if anyone 
wants to play with it.  It was linearized for Lexjet Pro Semimatte, but 
should work fine for most of the RC papers.

Carl

#
#  quadtone curve descriptor file
#
#
# the printer name
# the curve name
#   no spaces or special characters, except - or _  (dash or underscore)
#
PRINTER=QUAD2200
CALIBRATION=NO
GRAPH_CURVE=NO

#
# number of inks must be 4, 6, or 7
# the ink limits are percentages
#   usually they are all the same but they can be individually set
#
N_OF_INKS=7
DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=100

LIMIT_K=0
BOOST_K=
LIMIT_C=0
LIMIT_M=0
LIMIT_Y=0
LIMIT_LC=25
LIMIT_LM=25
LIMIT_LK=

#
#  Describe Usage of each Ink: K,C,M,Y,LC,LM,LK
#    All Inks of Printer must be listed
#

#
# Gray Partitioning Information
#
N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=2
GRAY_INK_1=K
GRAY_VAL_1=100

GRAY_INK_2=LK
GRAY_VAL_2=100

GRAY_INK_3=
GRAY_VAL_3=

GRAY_INK_4=
GRAY_VAL_4=

GRAY_INK_5=
GRAY_VAL_5=

GRAY_INK_6=
GRAY_VAL_6=

GRAY_INK_7=
GRAY_VAL_7=

GRAY_HIGHLIGHT=4
GRAY_SHADOW=8

GRAY_GAMMA=1
GRAY_CURVE=

#
# Toner Partition Information
#
N_OF_TONER_PARTS=0
TONER_INK_1=
TONER_VAL_1=
TONER_INK_2=
TONER_VAL_2=

TONER_HIGHLIGHT=2
TONER_SHADOW=2

TONER_GAMMA=1
TONER_CURVE=

#
# Unused Inks
#
N_OF_UNUSED=2
UNUSED_INK_1=C
UNUSED_INK_2=M
UNUSED_INK_3=
UNUSED_INK_4=

#
# the following is a special UltraChrome ink flag it copies the
# light-black curves to the light-cyan, light-magenta and yellow inks.
# this insures that the LC and LM inks are used to directly neutralize
# the color of the light-black.
# the color balance of inks is controlled by the LIMIT_... values above.
#
UC_NEUTRALIZER=YES
LINEARIZE="0.039 0.073 0.104 0.145 0.192 0.234 0.299 0.353 0.417 0.485 
0.541 0.613 0.690 0.763 0.856 0.937 1.049 1.178 1.322 1.492 1.770 "

On Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 01:11  PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> wrote:
>> Tyler,
>>
>> I used a similar approach with QTR to get a neutral profile for RC
>> papers where it is difficult to cool down the very warm PK ink using
>> the partitioned method.  I just ran the LK, LC, and LM inks in 
>> parallel
>> across the scale without any partitioning.  Analogous to BO printing,
>> but without using any black ink.  The neutralized LK alone has enough
>> density to give a reasonable dmax without using any PK and the tone is
>> consistent across the scale.
>
> Clever, pretty cool what these new drivers will let us play with. All
> it takes is an inquisitive mind. I recall Culbertson doing some
> straight CMY tests with similar richness without K ink.
> Also worth noting your setup probably used up to 300% total ink
> without problems (I presume). Another example of letting that ink go
> down, don't be stingy with it!
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Chatzebussi,
> 
> > my 2200 I was able to reduce it [i.e. (dither-banding] by doing an
> >alignment with a setting of 1"
> 
> The head alignment utility prints out a series of overlapped lines
and
> asks you to enter the number of the best matched pair.  It then
> adjusts something which is supposed to optimize the head alignment.
 I
> did an experiment one day by choosing each number then making a
print.
>  I found that as the numbers got smaller there was continually less
> dither banding.
 
> Regards,
> Clayton

Hello Clinton

Thanks! One more question about minimizing "dither banding" in an
EPSON 2100/2200 for BO printing: There appear two boxes in the head
alignment utility.
In my case No1 has the (default) value 8 in it. No2 as well. If  I
wanted to rely on your findings, what do I do? Just enter the value 1
in_both_
boxes?

Regards

Chatzebussi

I had the exact same banding on my 1200, so i actually went out and 
bought a 1280...same banding exactly. Switched to UT2 ink and no 
banding.....setting the 1200 back up as a color printer....DM
On Aug 13, 2004, at 11:27 AM, bwbonkers wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
>  Read alot about BO printing on this forum so decided to have a go.
>  I've compared side by side my BO prints with prints using all the
>  inks and I must admit I'm rather impressed with the BO prints. The BO
>  prints have better dmax, and have something about them. Digital Tri-X
>  is a good description. However I noticed that in the shadow areas
>  there is fine banding. This spoils the print for me. I'm using a 1160
>  with MIS UT inks and eboni black printing on EAM paper. I have
>  checked the printer head alignment and nozzle check is perfect. Is
>  there a way to reduce banding or is this a product of using a printer
>  that can only print at 1440 dpi.
>
>  Peter
>
>
>
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