Digital BW, The Print

I've researched myself into a corner. I've read about Piezography, 
MIS, Quad Tone RIP, Black Only printing and now I'm really confused 
as to which way to go.

K.I.S.S. was created for me. I'm not all that stupid, but I like to 
keep things "simple." I'm not too technical. On the other hand, I'd 
like to obtain the best looking print I can. I know, it's hard to 
have both. At any rate, my priorities are:

1. Image quality
2. Simplicity of workflow
3. Longevity
4. Cost
(Have I overlooked anything?)

Some of these systems appear to be very complicated, more so than 
wet darkroom printing ever was. So if any of you have a suggestions 
and/or opinions on this, I'd love to hear them.

Thank you in advance for your guidance!

Jay

Buy a 4000 and use small gamut or photo realistic mode profiles.  Not 
quite the neutrality of IP but close, extremely simple workflow, and 
get 3-4 profiles for your favorite papers for $25 ea.... 
Piece of cake.
SB 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jayglad" 
<jaygladwell@h...> wrote:

> I've researched myself into a corner. I've read about Piezography, 
> MIS, Quad Tone RIP, Black Only printing and now I'm really confused 
> as to which way to go.
> 
> K.I.S.S. was created for me. I'm not all that stupid, but I like to 
> keep things "simple." I'm not too technical. On the other hand, I'd 
> like to obtain the best looking print I can. I know, it's hard to 
> have both. At any rate, my priorities are:
> 
> 1. Image quality
> 2. Simplicity of workflow
> 3. Longevity
> 4. Cost
> (Have I overlooked anything?)
> 
> Some of these systems appear to be very complicated, more so than 
> wet darkroom printing ever was. So if any of you have a suggestions 
> and/or opinions on this, I'd love to hear them.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your guidance!
> 
> Jay

well, I give my vote to mis UT ink using the driver/sliders method. 
Super easy, and look real good, work on lots of papers. Just have to 
dial them in on your papers, which is pretty easy by trial and error. 
Looks better than black-only, which was not really that simple when I 
tried it. Black-only has problems with dither banding on certain dark 
areas which can ruin a print. quadtone rip seemed to work exactly as 
well as the sliders method, only 4 times slower. Paul roarks curves 
method is cool too for more control, but for me, the sliders give 
plenty of control.
On Sep 15, 2004, at 4:12 PM, jayglad wrote:

> At any rate, my priorities are:
>
>  1. Image quality
>  2. Simplicity of workflow
>  3. Longevity
>  4. Cost
>  (Have I overlooked anything?)
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jay, given that you said your priorities are: 
> 
> 1. Image quality
> 2. Simplicity of workflow
> 3. Longevity
> 4. Cost

I can recommend the solution I've just moved to. Granted, you're 
limited to prints that are only 8.5" x 11", but they can be much 
longer if you use 8.5x14 paper or cut down other papers. 

I got the Epson c84 printer ($69 refurbished from Epson's website) 
and the MIS EZ inks made for that printer. (one black and four gray 
cartridges for the black, magenta, cyan, and yellow cartridge slots) 
1) image quality is excellent
2) workflow is very simple (search for c84 for other comments about 
how tone is easily controlled from neutral to warm)
3) the inks are carbon-based pigment inks, quite archival
4) the printer is dirt cheap; the inks are $11 a cart, but the 
entire bulk ink feed system only costs $190, and that includes 4 oz. 
bottle of each of the four inks. 

It only cost me $120 to try this experiment, and I'm very happy with 
it. At first I had trouble with the prints being way too dark in the 
mid-tones, but then I tried an experiment that seems to have worked. 
I used Monaco EZcolor to profile my favorite matte paper. The test 
print was in B&W of course, but I just followed the EZcolor process 
as if it were all in color, and I was able to create a paper profile 
that creates a beautiful print. I was impressed. I'm now profiling 
the rest of my papers to make sure this wasn't a fluke. If it works 
out, I'll be posting my results here in more detail. 

Of course, if you want to make larger prints, this isn't the system 
for you, but for a dedicate B&W printer to augment my color setup, 
I'm very happy. 
Jim

We've all been there at one time or another. I've used all the color and quad tone inksets ( 
both Lyson's for 4 years ) except Paul's new MIS pigments, and my opinion is as follows.

For the very highest quality monochrome output I would choose either Cone Piezzotone 
carbon pigments or Paul Roarks UT carbon pigment. You can use Quad Tone Rip if you 
want on these but it is not necessary for outstanding monochrome output. These inksets 
represent the state of the art.

But, for simpliciity and if you need to also do color output from your pigment printer, the 
previous post about the new Epson 4000 is probably the best choice as long as the 17" 
width size works for you. If you go this route, and it is a very good route, be sure you have 
a custom profile made for you paper to linearize the color out for clean black and white's 
without metamerism. If you choose to use Roy Harrington's QTR rip you can produce first 
class monochrome work with any of these inksets, with no color shift at all under varying 
light sources. Personally this is the method that probably makes the most sense for 
simplicity and economic considerations.  You can also tone the monochrome prints using 
QTR within that driver.

If you do your homework all of these systems can produce beautiful black and white 
output. I personally use two methods now after leaving the Lyson products because of 
metamerism issues. Piezzography and black only printing using the Epson 10K. When 
using black only output I convert the file to greyscale and use grey 1.8 as a profile. I just 
did a show for the Atlanta airport using this method and they were beautifully rich. 
However when doing BO output it is very important to use a slightly textured paper to hide 
any dithering, I favor Somerset Velvet and Hahnemuhle William Turner. I have also had hit 
and miss results from Enhanced Matte and H. Photo Rag . The big problem with BO 
printing is the lack of a light black and medium light black to fill in those subtle highlight 
areas. Compare this with the best Quad inks and you will quickly notice the difference, 
especially in smaller prints of very subtle quality. BO printing on the smaller printers can 
be abismal though. The 10K lets you get away with it on many projects because of the 
huge head and good driver.

To get simple with all this, Ultrachrome inks on the 4000 or 7600 can do very fine 
monochrome work if it is set up right. This is the method that Nash Editions uses. There is 
always someone to help you in that direction. For the top of the line black and white 
output Quad Carbon pigments by MIS or Cone are the very finest products out there.

john dean

Hello All,
 
I am new on this forum so I don't understand the many abbreviations 
on the post. For example what means BO or QTR  (Quad tone rip ?) ?
I have a 4000 pro and cannot afford to dedicate it to B&W, so I am 
using Ultrachrome inks, on H.William Tuner I have some very nice 
monochrome result but I guess it could be better. So I was very 
surprised to see you mentioned the same in your post.
I guess there is a way to obtain better result just by choosing 
appropriate settings both in Photoshop and the Epson driver.
If you choose B&W setting the driver switch to Epson gamma 1.8 or 2.2 
and any ICC profil is cancel. I you choose Colour I never manage to 
get any real B&W print, always having some disturbing colour tones.
I am waiting for a Monaco Ez system and hope to be able to make good 
B&W profil with it.
 
Something else with the 4000, the driver ask you to choose a paper 
type but propose only Epson type, for example "photo glossy premium 
250" and when you are not using Epson papers you have to try them all 
to find the right one for the particular paper you are using, this 
setting give great differences for the same paper.
Funny enough some of these settings are not usable, all "glossy" 
settings for example are not accepted, the printer goes on error.
 
I believe some of you went through these and if they could give their 
comments, they would be welcome.
 
Michel




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> We've all been there at one time or another. I've used all the 
color and quad tone inksets ( 
> both Lyson's for 4 years ) except Paul's new MIS pigments, and my 
opinion is as follows.
> 
> For the very highest quality monochrome output I would choose 
either Cone Piezzotone 
> carbon pigments or Paul Roarks UT carbon pigment. You can use Quad 
Tone Rip if you 
> want on these but it is not necessary for outstanding monochrome 
output. These inksets 
> represent the state of the art.
> 
> But, for simpliciity and if you need to also do color output from 
your pigment printer, the 
> previous post about the new Epson 4000 is probably the best choice 
as long as the 17" 
> width size works for you. If you go this route, and it is a very 
good route, be sure you have 
> a custom profile made for you paper to linearize the color out for 
clean black and white's 
> without metamerism. If you choose to use Roy Harrington's QTR rip 
you can produce first 
> class monochrome work with any of these inksets, with no color 
shift at all under varying 
> light sources. Personally this is the method that probably makes 
the most sense for 
> simplicity and economic considerations.  You can also tone the 
monochrome prints using 
> QTR within that driver.
> 
> If you do your homework all of these systems can produce beautiful 
black and white 
> output. I personally use two methods now after leaving the Lyson 
products because of 
> metamerism issues. Piezzography and black only printing using the 
Epson 10K. When 
> using black only output I convert the file to greyscale and use 
grey 1.8 as a profile. I just 
> did a show for the Atlanta airport using this method and they were 
beautifully rich. 
> However when doing BO output it is very important to use a slightly 
textured paper to hide 
> any dithering, I favor Somerset Velvet and Hahnemuhle William 
Turner. I have also had hit 
> and miss results from Enhanced Matte and H. Photo Rag . The big 
problem with BO 
> printing is the lack of a light black and medium light black to 
fill in those subtle highlight 
> areas. Compare this with the best Quad inks and you will quickly 
notice the difference, 
> especially in smaller prints of very subtle quality. BO printing on 
the smaller printers can 
> be abismal though. The 10K lets you get away with it on many 
projects because of the 
> huge head and good driver.
> 
> To get simple with all this, Ultrachrome inks on the 4000 or 7600 
can do very fine 
> monochrome work if it is set up right. This is the method that Nash 
Editions uses. There is 
> always someone to help you in that direction. For the top of the 
line black and white 
> output Quad Carbon pigments by MIS or Cone are the very finest 
products out there.
> 
> john dean

I just ordered the set for my C84 (which came "free" after rebates with 
my Mac purchase)  I'm looking to print some panoramics, and I was 
wondering where, and what paper you're using that you find in 8.5 x 14 
sizes?  I have used Red River for years, but this isn't one of their 
standard sizes...

Ed

On Sep 16, 2004, at 11:41 AM, jimbeaujack  wrote:

> I can recommend the solution I've just moved to. Granted, you're
> limited to prints that are only 8.5" x 11", but they can be much
> longer if you use 8.5x14 paper or cut down other papers.
>
> I got the Epson c84 printer ($69 refurbished from Epson's website)
> and the MIS EZ inks made for that printer. (one black and four gray
> cartridges for the black, magenta, cyan, and yellow cartridge slots)
> 1) image quality is excellent
> 2) workflow is very simple (search for c84 for other comments about
> how tone is easily controlled from neutral to warm)
> 3) the inks are carbon-based pigment inks, quite archival
> 4) the printer is dirt cheap; the inks are $11 a cart, but the
> entire bulk ink feed system only costs $190, and that includes 4 oz.
> bottle of each of the four inks.

Ed: 
I like Mitsubishi double-sided matte in addition to Red River 
papers. Here's a link to a company that sells it in that size: 
http://www.digitalartsupplies.com/midijetduma.html
I think Canon might make one too, but I can't remember. You may have 
to do some searching. 
Jim


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ed Price 
<epr065@a...> wrote:
> I just ordered the set for my C84 (which came "free" after rebates 
with 
> my Mac purchase)  I'm looking to print some panoramics, and I was 
> wondering where, and what paper you're using that you find in 8.5 
x 14 
> sizes?  I have used Red River for years, but this isn't one of 
their 

> standard sizes...
> 
> Ed
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jimbeaujack" 
<yojimbo@n...> wrote:
> I can recommend the solution I've just moved to.
.  . . . mucho deleto . . . 


So you had to buy a dedicated printer, one that limits you to 8.5" 
wide prints - you had to buy 3rd party inks AND a refill system, you 
had to instll special profiles; you had to do a bunch of experiments 
to fix a problem, with the prints being too dark, including using a 
Monaco profiler.

I'm sorry but what part of "K.I.S.S." don't you understand?

I take my digital BW files to a local lab to have them 
photographically printed.  No fuss, no muss, no bother, and I can 
hav any size I want and they're all silver-halide so they are 
extremely archival.


Jay, one thing you need to understand about many people here is that 
they are the same kind of people who would rather spend their 
Saturdays in the garage, under the hood, working on their cars, 
instead of DRIVING them.    To some of the people here, refilling 
cartridges, profiling papers, and tweaking work flows is the FUN 
part of this hobby.