Digital BW, The Print

Ernst,

Interesting that the R800 printer doesn't have a Black only option (or if it 
does, I haven't found it yet). What it does have are two B&W options. One is 
selectable when 'Best Photo' is chosen and a 'Grayscale' option appears on 
the 'Advanced' page with a limited set of 'Color Controls' (just brightness 
and contrast). The other is selectable when 'Photo RPM' is chosen along with 
'Photoenhance'. That gives you a choice of 'Monochrome' as well as 'Sepia', 
etc.

I've just printed a 21point grayscale (in grayscale mode) by both methods on 
Premium Glossy and they are very good. Not good enough for some on this 
list, but most normal people would not notice the minute deviations from 
neutrality. When I get a moment I must measure them with my Colormouse, but 
they are certainly the best I have seen using the Epson driver, inks, and 
paper from any Epson printer.

The dots on the R800 are so small, I can't make out which colors are/aren't 
used with a x10 lens. It needs a microscope. It is certainly using colors, 
and the HiGloss Ultrachromes are far superior to the ordinary Ultrachromes 
on glossy paper.

I'm waiting impatiently for the A3 version that seems to have appeared in 
Japan.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] StudioPrint, mono color management etc. was How 
reliable

>
> David B. Brooks wrote:
>
>
>> I agree with you about the Epson R-800. However, from my tests I don\ufffdt 
>> think
>> the Light Black ink is in play when Black only is selected in the driver 
>> to
>> print grayscale images. In fact the Light Black ink is a very warm black 
>> ink
>> if you paint some of the ink on a paper sample. But it is an interesting
>> possibility if a very fine droplet size and enough nozzles with variable
>> droplet technology were applied to making a B&W printer. The \ufffdsimple
>> elegance\ufffd of such a solution could be revolutionary \ufffd why not have just 
>> one
>> ink for black and white printing?????
>
>
> Black Only doesn't use the grey ink in Epson drivers.  I don't
> think it would be better either to add only grey to the black but
> adapting the color mode to black and white printing in a third
> choice of the driver could deliver better B&W prints than what is
> possible now. Using slight addition of color to get the
> neutrality and/or "toning" of the B&W print like QTR and
> ImagePrint do today.

Bob Frost wrote:

> Interesting that the R800 printer doesn't have a Black only option (or if it 
> does, I haven't found it yet). What it does have are two B&W options. One is 
> selectable when 'Best Photo' is chosen and a 'Grayscale' option appears on 
> the 'Advanced' page with a limited set of 'Color Controls' (just brightness 
> and contrast). The other is selectable when 'Photo RPM' is chosen along with 
> 'Photoenhance'. That gives you a choice of 'Monochrome' as well as 'Sepia', 
> etc.
> 
> I've just printed a 21point grayscale (in grayscale mode) by both methods on 
> Premium Glossy and they are very good. Not good enough for some on this 
> list, but most normal people would not notice the minute deviations from 
> neutrality. When I get a moment I must measure them with my Colormouse, but 
> they are certainly the best I have seen using the Epson driver, inks, and 
> paper from any Epson printer.
> 
> The dots on the R800 are so small, I can't make out which colors are/aren't 
> used with a x10 lens. It needs a microscope. It is certainly using colors, 
> and the HiGloss Ultrachromes are far superior to the ordinary Ultrachromes 
> on glossy paper.
> 
> I'm waiting impatiently for the A3 version that seems to have appeared in 
> Japan.

Bob,

I was not aware of that choice on the R800. I'm not familiar with 
the printer at all but its specs on the internet.
Some information on B&W ICC profiles for RIPs that Tyler and I 
were checking independently from one another, the original Epson 
color profiles of the Epson 9000 that showed an exaggerated gamut 
even for a dye printer in Wasatch's 3D profile viewer and the 
discussion here about repeatability and consistency in B&W 
printing led me to the idea that Epson could do something better 
in B&W printing if they added a separate B&W choice that used the 
color ink set as well but with adaption to the paper settings 
c.q. an extra small gamut ICC profile, both with B&W printing as 
the goal. It looks like they have done part of that already in 
the R800 driver given your observation.  Do they use an extra ICC 
profile in the driver ? (should be visible in 
properties>colourmanagement of the printer driver setting)  If 
not then they have used a proprietary solution for B&W which may 
be as good.

The black may still not go to 0% ink and composite grey used for 
the highlights instead.  That's taking a risk on color shifts in 
time. An extra grey would solve most of that problem if it exists.

Ernst

Bob,

Curiosity kills the cat but I have installed the Windows R800 
driver to see what it does. I was not aware of the fact that you 
don't get to see the ICC profile(s) anymore in the driver menu. 
Compared to the wide format drivers I'm used to, the driver 
integrates more features and is in a way even less transparent. 
The installation has three profiles that will get used by the 
paper settings if the driver is set to do the color management 
and must be selected in PS if that program will do the color 
management. Alan Briot uses the last I see. Nothing new to you.

No indication of special B&W ICC profiles, I will check whether 
there is something special in the profiles with the Wasatch 3D 
profile viewer.

One wonders whether the rendering choices of ICC profiles can get 
a 5th addition for B&W rendering. The basics of neutrality are 
the same for color and B&W profiles but with the first you want 
to keep a wide gamut and with the other you want to get a small 
gamut and more neutrality. What I have seen of B&W ICC profiles 
so far is that all the 4 rendering choices show a mapping to the 
grey axis of the color space.  That's done by setting the 
saturation sliders 100% negative per rendering in profile editors 
and not much more. One extra rendering incorporating that (and 
possibly more that escapes me) for B&W would be a nice addition 
to the ICC standard.

Ernst

Ernst, given that Epson can build in different media settings that
each have unique ink limits, channel ramps, and GCR amounts, add to
that the control they seem to be able to exert over these issues with
different settings like Photo Realistic etc., if follows they could
easily build in a K, light K, with minimal corrective color ink, max K
generation setting in these drivers for good B&W with the 7 ink
printers, or some similar iteration for the small dot single K printers.
My more cynical nature observes these teams of Adobe, Epson,
ImagePrint, Imacon crewcuts traveling the country selling seminars on
how to do all this crap and buy it all, along with high profile
commercials shooters to give credibility (giving rise to the notion
that they have abandoned commercial photography in favor of corporate
seminars, therefore have nothing to offer us in the matter of actually
being a successful COMMERCIAL PHOTOGRAPHER!!!).
Anyway, sorry for the rant. But since I have observed other such
marriages affecting what products come to market and what don't
(witness PressReady) I suspect Epson has no inclination to provide a
solution that would hamper sales of more expensive solutions from
people with whom they have productive business relations.

Time for more coffee and a smiley face.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> (witness PressReady) I suspect Epson has no inclination to provide a
> solution that would hamper sales of more expensive solutions from
> people with whom they have productive business relations.
> 
Epson had better look over their shoulders. They have practically
abandonned the graphic office printer to HP to concentrate on photo
printers. But now HP is making inroads into that market with printers
like the HP 8450 which is at least the equal of the Epson R800 in
color printing and outprints it when it comes to b&w.

If HP were ever to bring out A3+ and A2 versions of that printer, my
guess is that Epson sales charts would look like that of a bad stock
hammered by short sellers. HP started a trend with the discontinued(?)
HP 7960 and now it only needs third party paper and ink support. 

André

Tyler Boley wrote:

> I suspect Epson has no inclination to provide a
> solution that would hamper sales of more expensive solutions from
> people with whom they have productive business relations.

Very true.  They like to cut up the market in small slices. But 
HP seems to be interested in B&W solutions so Epson could decide 
to do something about it.

Ernst

Andre wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> 
>>(witness PressReady) I suspect Epson has no inclination to provide a
>>solution that would hamper sales of more expensive solutions from
>>people with whom they have productive business relations.
>>
> 
> Epson had better look over their shoulders. They have practically
> abandonned the graphic office printer to HP to concentrate on photo
> printers. But now HP is making inroads into that market with printers
> like the HP 8450 which is at least the equal of the Epson R800 in
> color printing and outprints it when it comes to b&w.
> 
> If HP were ever to bring out A3+ and A2 versions of that printer, my
> guess is that Epson sales charts would look like that of a bad stock
> hammered by short sellers. HP started a trend with the discontinued(?)
> HP 7960 and now it only needs third party paper and ink support. 

HP should use the rear view mirror too, Dell likes to have a 
share of the office printer market.  While HP with Compaq 
included still makes most of its revenue in printers and 
peripherals, Dell succeeds in making money with computer systems. 
They can do that with printers too.

http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/top/story/0,4136,63395,00.html

Hope it will bring out the best in Epson and HP.

Ernst

Hi André,

Regarding third party inks, I say "amen to that". The HP ink costs were savage with the 7xxx printers, and I guess they will be just as bad with the new one too. Because these are dye-based printers there is a big incentive to use the preferred media because of concerns about longevity. These two factors combined were enough to put me off the 7960, even though the output looked great.

-= mike =-

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre 
Sent: 19 October 2004 18:19
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: R800, Ernst



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> (witness PressReady) I suspect Epson has no inclination to provide a 
> solution that would hamper sales of more expensive solutions from 
> people with whom they have productive business relations.
> 
Epson had better look over their shoulders. They have practically abandonned the graphic office printer to HP to concentrate on photo printers. But now HP is making inroads into that market with printers like the HP 8450 which is at least the equal of the Epson R800 in color printing and outprints it when it comes to b&w.

If HP were ever to bring out A3+ and A2 versions of that printer, my guess is that Epson sales charts would look like that of a bad stock hammered by short sellers. HP started a trend with the discontinued(?) HP 7960 and now it only needs third party paper and ink support. 

André

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