Digital BW, The Print

I like the idea of pulling ink from the waste lines At the waste tank end. 
This will certainly tell you if there is a seal or vacum leak.
Are you sure the dampers have a good seal? They really don't snap in, but 
they should NOT just lift up without a tool to pry them up and out.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yea, I've checked the position of the dampers a million times. My idea IS that something is 
clogged in either the wate lines or the pump or both. I don't know how much this inhibits 
the heads filling. It could be I have to replace the pad station or the pump or both, but I 
want to try eveything I can before ordering parts that I don't need,

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... wrote:

> I like the idea of pulling ink from the waste lines At the waste tank end. 
> This will certainly tell you if there is a seal or vacum leak.
> Are you sure the dampers have a good seal? They really don't snap in, but 
> they should NOT just lift up without a tool to pry them up and out.
> Steve M.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now that I have replaced the heads and dampers and still have no ink flow at all, I'm going 
to order a new pump and capping station assembly, install them and if that doesn't work 
I'm gong to trash this printer completely (that I paid 5 grand for), and buy a 9600 and use 
Ultrachrome inks with a rip for the rest of my career. This changeover crap isn't worth the 
time and money I've invested.

Hi John,

Sorry it took a while to find this info, and it's pretty much what I
remembered and communicated earlier -- however, I wanted to make sure
I wasn't giving you any incorrect data and it is confirmed by Epson, 
since it's your printer that is "under the knife":

On Page 104 of my 7000 manual, here's the info regarding "power-off"
testing of the pump and associated components. It's also good to note
that the manual confirms that each "init" cycle pulls about 90 ml of
ink through each head -- so if you've done a number of "init" and KK2
cycles and your carts are still pretty full and your waste pads aren't
soaked, you can be confident that the machine is going through the
motions but it's not really charging. This isn't really news to us,
because we already agreed that the ink in your lines is probably there
due to your pulling it down to the dampers with the syringe. 

So here's what the manual states:

 
3. If the extra ink charge does not clear the clogged nozzles, confirm
the following.

 - There is no damage to or foreign materials in/around the rubber of
the Cap Assembly (My note: i.e., that there is really a good seal
there capable of holding a vacuum)

 - The Cap Assembly valve is operating normally (if it is not, the Cap
Assembly will not properly absorb ink)

 - The Cap Assembly retention spring is working properly

 - The ink tubes and pipes between the ink cartridges and printheads
are properly connected and are not damaged (check the nuts for
tightness, the O-rings for warping, and the tubes/pipes for ink
leakage)

 - Remove the R-side cover and looking from above, make sure both
heads are properly sealed when the printheads are in the capped
position

 - Put liquid in the caps and rotate the pump gears by hand to make
sure the pump assembly is working correctly

 - While performing a cleaning operation, make sure the pump motor
and gears are functioning correcting

 - Check the FFC connections, and reseat if necessary

So, that's the official Epson instructions. I'd add to that a couple
of things as well:

 - VERY IMPORTANT: This is likely to be the messiest part of the job
you've done so far, so do protect your environment, your body and your
printer from ink that may emerge under pressure. Keep plenty of rags
close at hand, Windex to do quick clean-ups and plastic bags for
quickly containing ink-covered "stuff" ;>)

 - ALSO VERY IMPORTANT: The sequence of instructions that are in the
manual are quoted "as written", but if you read them carefully I'm
sure you'll note they are not in logical sequence. i.e., some of the
suggested steps should be done when the power is off, others observing
the system executing its own routines, etc. Therefore, know that the
inspection points and procedures are good, but they are not
necessarily in proper sequence -- so use caution
 
 - Use a cleaning fluid of your choice when doing this process of
putting fluid in the caps and turning the pump, because it's very
likely that there are gunked up lines or pumps involved and some extra
help will be needed to break up the blockage

 - Remember to rotate the pump in a CLOCKWISE direction to pull the
fluids from the capping stations (See Page 65 of the manual)

 - If you're not getting any kind of flow with manual rotation of the
pump, you can start working through the system in one of two ways --
either from the top down or the bottom up, whichever looks to be the
most likely source of your problem. If you decide to disassemble
things from the capping station down to make sure that each of the
tubes are clear, just be careful when removing them and have a rag
handy. They will probably release ink when you least expect it

 - Conversely, you could create a vacuum from the "lowest point" in
the waste system while applying fluid at the top end. If you're not
seeing a result from manual pump rotation, this might be a way to go.
However, if the pump or any of the valves or lines are really gunked
up, you probably won't have a clear path to create negative pressure
(vacuum) all the way to the caps

 - When you're successul in clearing the system (and I know you will
be), make sure the lines from the capping station are secured properly
and out of the path of the head/carriage when you restore operation

 - Although the pads were cleaned when you put in the new Piezo inks
over the "Jet Jrano" and old Lyson inks, unless you flushed this whole
capping, pump and waste system completely, that was probably where the
incompatible inks found room to mingle and gel

Hope this does the trick for you, John. Let me know if I can be of
further assistance...

Richard

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> Yea, I've checked the position of the dampers a million times. My
idea IS that something is 
> clogged in either the wate lines or the pump or both. I don't know
how much this inhibits 
> the heads filling. It could be I have to replace the pad station or
the pump or both, but I 
> want to try eveything I can before ordering parts that I don't need,
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a...
wrote:
> > I like the idea of pulling ink from the waste lines At the waste
tank end. 
> > This will certainly tell you if there is a seal or vacum leak.
> > Are you sure the dampers have a good seal? They really don't snap
in, but 
> > they should NOT just lift up without a tool to pry them up and
out.

> > Steve M.
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-Richard,

That was extremely nice of you to take away time from your own work to think about this. 
I searched the manual many times and never found this data that you just gave me. I did 
try to suck on the lines that go to the pads below ( that are still clean and dry after many 
initial fill and cleaning procedures ) with my mouth to see if there was a blockage there 
and they seemed to be clear up to the pump by the sound they make but who knows. My 
head cap on the left side does look old and a bit dried up but why would that effect the 
right side, who knows if it is.

Tomorrow I am going to try taking this pump assembly apart and evaluating it. If that 
doesn't do the trick I'm ordering a new pump and cap assembly. After that I don't have a 
clue.  Could be a bad head board, etc, etc...

You have gone well beyond the call of duty and I'm sure some other folks on this site will 
learn from your information as well. I am going to print all this info out and save it in a 
folder in case anyone else needs it. 

John

Hi John,

Our posts just crossed on the wire here...

I understand your sentiments completely. Things do get frustrating
after a prolonged effort like you've undertaken. However, let me
suggest the following:

1. Don't spend the money on a new pump and capping station just yet
when your problem could be in any number of other places connecting
the two or exiting either one. Therefore, while you might hit the
problem that way, you might also be buying expensive parts when it's
just a clogged piece of tubing you can clear or replace for $.99

2. The path of the 9600 isn't a bad one. I've got both 7000/9000
systems along side my 9600. Imageprint makes a nice B&W output, but
it's not a Piezotone -- and there are no guarantees of trouble free
operation with anything. If you go the 9600 route, just make sure you
get a one-year onsite Epson warranty on either a new or refurb machine
so you can be confident you're getting some piece of mind with your
investment (or at least someone else has the headaches if there's any
problems to be resolved) 

3. I've changed many diffeent kinds of inks in my various printers,
and never really had a problem. However, I've always avoided doing so
with Lyson inks because of the known chemical incompatibilies. I don't
say that to aggrevate you, but just know that you're not the first
person that's been stung by the "change-over blues" with Lyson inks

Lastly, I fully support your drawing a line regarding how much time
and effort you're willing to invest before taking another course of
action. Your time is money, and if you're not having fun then it's
probably a wise decision.

Life is too short and there's so many beautiful images just waiting
for you to capture and print...

Kind regards,
Richard


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Now that I have replaced the heads and dampers and still have no ink
flow at all, I'm going 
> to order a new pump and capping station assembly, install them and
if that doesn't work 
> I'm gong to trash this printer completely (that I paid 5 grand for),
and buy a 9600 and use 
> Ultrachrome inks with a rip for the rest of my career. This
changeover crap isn't worth the 
> time and money I've invested.

Dear Epson Printer technicans,

I don't want to beat a dying horse here and I will be dealing with this myself for a few days, 
But:

I just took off the parking pad assembly and checked all the lines - they appear 
unobstructed. It seems that at least one pad is worn down a bit, but I should be able to 
order the pads without replacing the whole assembly just to cover myself.

My question, to anyone out there, is - is this "PUMP" that brings the ink into the heads an 
actual PUMP that can wear out like any other PUMP ? Or, is it just the physical location of 
all these waste hoses going to the waste pads? If it is an actual PUMP this could very well 
be my lack of suction from the carts to the heads. And I would think they would instruct 
you to evaluate this first.  If it is not an actual PUMP then I won't 
bother replacing it.

This manual tells me nothing about the actual function and construction of this "pump". 
And, in typical Epson fashon, they just direct  you to replace the whole - pump, pad, 
parking pad, hose, assembly, etc. How rinky dink can you get. I can see why the Epson 
techs just replace everything and hope for the best, that is what their manual tells them to 
do. Repace this section or that section and let the customer pay for it.

I'll disappear for a few days and come back with a better attitude. I have really appreciated 
all the constructive information. 

John

Hi John,

Since you addressed this to "Epson Printer Technicians", I'm not sure
you're looking for any more of my suggestions. However, since I'm a
bit dense and the question you've asked is fairly specific, I thought
I'd respond. Of course, feel free to disregard my comments... ;>)

Yes, the pump is actually a pump and provides the vacuum that draws
the inks out of the carts, down the lines and through the heads during
the fill, flush or init cycles. During KK2 cleaning or flush cycles,
this suction is increased to help break up clogs in the heads, etc. 

It doesn't actually pump ink "into the heads" as worded in your
subject line, but rather pulls the ink "through" the heads, which
gives you the same result of filling everything with ink. This is
pretty much covered on Page 65 of the service manual and on ensuing
pages discussing theory of operation.

And yes, the pump can wear out like any other pump, but since it has
"low mileage" and was working fine before your ink change, it's not
necessarily a prime suspect. However, since your pads are completely
dry after all the inits and KK2s, this part of the system (of which
the pump is one component) stands out like a sore thumb as being your
likely problem.

The fact that your parking pad and lines appear unobstructed is a good
thing, and the wear you've noted on one pad "could" be a problem --
but it's not likely it would cause the complete loss of functionality
you've described. Remember, the pump has two main components - the
motor and the pump itself where all the tubes connect (plus a few
gears and shafts connecting them).    

That is why I suggested following the manual's description of doing a
power-off rotation of the pump while feeding some fluid into the caps.
The wear to the pads or even the capping station seals becomes
irrelevant using this test, because the heads aren't even parked while
you're running this procedure.

Since you've already checked the capping stations and immediate drain
lines and they appear clear, you might want to look farther "downline"
on the system. Just keep in mind that a blockage anywhere between the
capping station and the exit point of the waste tubes can prevent the
flow you're looking for.

And yes, Epson prefers to provide only "high level" information
regarding the individual components within this area of the printer.
The average service technician these days isn't equipped technically
to do much more than swap out the assemblies, and that's not actually
for lack of information in the manuals. However, no need to go there.

My closing suggestion is to get as close to the pump intake as you
can, insert fluids there and see if anything comes out the other side
when you actuate the pump. That eliminates the question of whether
it's a plugged up tube or points to a problem with the pump itself.
Keep in mind that if the pump is full of gunk, it may not necessarily
be defective; just clogged. 

In either event, if you're working directly at the input and output
ports of the pump and nothing happens when you actuate it, or after
you've then filled it with some clog-busting fluid, let it set a bit
and tried again, then you've probably done all you can (unless you
want to attempt dissassembly of the pump itself) before replacing it. 

Best of luck, John. I'll hold off with any more suggestions online at
this point but feel free to contact me via email or the forum if I can
be of further assistance...

Cheers!
Richard

 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> Dear Epson Printer technicans,
> 
> I don't want to beat a dying horse here and I will be dealing with
this myself for a few days, 
> But:
> 
> I just took off the parking pad assembly and checked all the lines -
they appear 
> unobstructed. It seems that at least one pad is worn down a bit, but
I should be able to 
> order the pads without replacing the whole assembly just to cover
myself.
> 
> My question, to anyone out there, is - is this "PUMP" that brings
the ink into the heads an 
> actual PUMP that can wear out like any other PUMP ? Or, is it just
the physical location of 
> all these waste hoses going to the waste pads? If it is an actual
PUMP this could very well 
> be my lack of suction from the carts to the heads. And I would think
they would instruct 
> you to evaluate this first.  If it is not an actual PUMP then I
won't 
> bother replacing it.
> 
> This manual tells me nothing about the actual function and
construction of this "pump". 
> And, in typical Epson fashon, they just direct  you to replace the
whole - pump, pad, 
> parking pad, hose, assembly, etc. How rinky dink can you get. I can
see why the Epson 
> techs just replace everything and hope for the best, that is what
their manual tells them to 
> do. Repace this section or that section and let the customer pay
for it.
> 
> I'll disappear for a few days and come back with a better attitude.
I have really appreciated 

> all the constructive information. 
> 
> John

Thank you so much Richrad,

I will follow these suggestions before ordering the pump today. I'll let you know this week 
how it all flushed out.

Best,

John
-------------------------------------------------------
My closing suggestion is to get as close to the pump intake as you
can, insert fluids there and see if anything comes out the other side
when you actuate the pump. That eliminates the question of whether
it's a plugged up tube or points to a problem with the pump itself.
Keep in mind that if the pump is full of gunk, it may not necessarily
be defective; just clogged.

In either event, if you're working directly at the input and output
ports of the pump and nothing happens when you actuate it, or after
you've then filled it with some clog-busting fluid, let it set a bit
and tried again, then you've probably done all you can (unless you
want to attempt dissassembly of the pump itself) before replacing it.

John,

Does your printer have valves on ink lines? When I transported my Epson 9000
I didn't turn off the ink lines, I just forgot it. When testing the 
printer, halve of the
inks didn't print and it took me some time to realize that  the right 
side valve was
accidentally turned off.

Kemal

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"

><deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Dear Epson Printer technicans,
>>
>>I don't want to beat a dying horse here and I will be dealing with
>>    
>>
>this myself for a few days, 
>  
>
>>But:
>>
>  
>

Hi Kemal,

That is a very good question! I just looked in the manual and they also state to be sure to 
turn on and off the ink valves when transporting. However, when I do a search on the pdf 
manual I can find on other mention of this valve. Could you please tell me where it is 
located on your printer? My parts list doesn't seem to mention it either. But if they refered 
to it in the beginning it must be there.

John








--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kemal Delic <k.delic@t...> wrote:
> John,
> 
> Does your printer have valves on ink lines? When I transported my Epson 9000
> I didn't turn off the ink lines, I just forgot it. When testing the 
> printer, halve of the
> inks didn't print and it took me some time to realize that  the right 
> side valve was
> accidentally turned off.
> 
> Kemal
> 
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> 
> ><deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Dear Epson Printer technicans,
> >>
> >>I don't want to beat a dying horse here and I will be dealing with
> >>    
> >>
> >this myself for a few days, 
> >  
> >
> >>But:
> >>
> >  
> >

John,

On Epson 9000 the valves are outside on the left and the right
side of the housing. May be some Epson 7000 owner can answer.

Kemal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

john dean wrote:

>Hi Kemal,
>
>That is a very good question! I just looked in the manual and they also state to be sure to 
>turn on and off the ink valves when transporting. However, when I do a search on the pdf 
>manual I can find on other mention of this valve. Could you please tell me where it is 
>located on your printer? My parts list doesn't seem to mention it either. But if they refered 
>to it in the beginning it must be there.
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kemal Delic <k.delic@t...> wrote:
>  
>
>>John,
>>
>>Does your printer have valves on ink lines? When I transported my Epson 9000
>>I didn't turn off the ink lines, I just forgot it. When testing the 
>>printer, halve of the
>>inks didn't print and it took me some time to realize that  the right 
>>side valve was
>>accidentally turned off.
>>
>>Kemal
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>  
>
>>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
>>
>>    
>>
>>><deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Dear Epson Printer technicans,
>>>>
>>>>I don't want to beat a dying horse here and I will be dealing with
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>this myself for a few days, 
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>But:
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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john dean wrote:
> 
> Hi Kemal,
> 
> That is a very good question! I just looked in the manual and they also state to be sure to 
> turn on and off the ink valves when transporting. However, when I do a search on the pdf 
> manual I can find on other mention of this valve. Could you please tell me where it is 
> located on your printer? My parts list doesn't seem to mention it either. But if they refered 
> to it in the beginning it must be there.
> 
> John

It would have been the first thing I would mention if your 
problem was with a 9000. But AFAIK there are no ink valves on the 
7000.

Ernst

-Thanks Ernst,

I see.

Since the total for the parts only cost me $50.00 I have ordered a new capping assembly 
and a new pump assembly. I'll take a rest from it and come back to it in a couple of days 
when I'm less stressed. In the meantime I'll check on the prices of the 9600's. I don't 
imaging it is that smart buying a refurbished one. I want major long term support, forever, 
for the life of the printer. I'm sick of being covered with ink.

john