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[Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

[Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-10 by Paul Roark

Steve,

>I seem to be getting fairly grainy results from B&W negs ...
>using a decent scanner [Nikon LS4000] and scanning at max res.....?

The Nikon apparently uses a highly-focused, "collimated" light source that
shows more grain than the more diffuse light sources.  It's analogous to the
condenser enlarger head v. a color or cold light head that has a ground
glass above the negative.  I worry about this with the Nikon also, having me
eye on the 8000.

I don't think lowering the resolution is the answer.  I deal with grain by
sharpening only in selected areas and the use of various Photoshop tools.

The "Smart Blur" tool has proved itself to be on of the most amazing tools
for this. (Filter, Blur, Smart Blur)  Try playing with the controls in its
dialogue box with an area that is troublesome.  I use it on a duplicate
image (or layer for those who prefer such).  Then I combine the images
selectively and at different percentages as needed to balance grain with
detail.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-10 by Tim Mimpriss

Steve Wolfenden wrote:
This is probably a bit off-topic but hopefully someone can offer some advice
. I seem to be getting fairly grainy results from B&W negs , at A4 and A3+ ,
even when using fine grained film[e.g.Delta100] which does not show much
grain on the negs .

Steve,

Make sure that the scanner is not automatically applying USM by default. If
you need to sharpen before printing, try the high pass/hard light technique
instead of USM.

Tim

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-10 by Daren M.

Hi Steve,

A little more info here might be helpful.  Are you seeing the grain only
in the final print or on your monitor as well(viewed at 100%)?  Also,
what method are you using for sharpening, sometimes using a very low
threshold in unsharp mask can yield very "grainy" results.

Scanning at low resolutions will not help this problem at all, it will,
as you mentioned, only limit the size of output possible.  If I were you
I would examine my image workflow from start to finish, is processing of
the film an issue (have you made traditional prints)?  Are you using the
scanner's native sharpening, and then sharpening in PS?  How are you
printing these images, on what printer & what inks?

Just a few thoughts, hope they help.
Daren




Steve Woolfenden wrote:

> This is probably a bit off-topic but hopefully someone can offer some
> advice . I seem to be getting fairly grainy results from B&W negs , at
> A4 and A3+ , even when using fine grained film[e.g.Delta100] which
> does not show much grain on the negs . Presumably I am introducing
> grain during scanning or something? Any ideas why this would happen
> and what I should do to avoid it?? I'm using a decent scanner [Nikon
> LS4000] and scanning at max res.....?
> Someone suggested scanning at lower res. but then , presumably , one
> would have problems making a decent sized print.
> Any help appreciated
> Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-10 by Steve Woolfenden

Thanks for the tips Paul I shall look into this , however , I'm not convinced this is the extent of the problem . I still have a suspicion its something I'm doing.......
Steve

  Steve,

  >I seem to be getting fairly grainy results from B&W negs ...
  >using a decent scanner [Nikon LS4000] and scanning at max res.....?

  The Nikon apparently uses a highly-focused, "collimated" light source that
  shows more grain than the more diffuse light sources.  It's analogous to the
  condenser enlarger head v. a color or cold light head that has a ground
  glass above the negative.  I worry about this with the Nikon also, having me
  eye on the 8000.

  I don't think lowering the resolution is the answer.  I deal with grain by
  sharpening only in selected areas and the use of various Photoshop tools.

  The "Smart Blur" tool has proved itself to be on of the most amazing tools
  for this. (Filter, Blur, Smart Blur)  Try playing with the controls in its
  dialogue box with an area that is troublesome.  I use it on a duplicate
  image (or layer for those who prefer such).  Then I combine the images
  selectively and at different percentages as needed to balance grain with
  detail.

  Paul
  http://www.PaulRoark.com


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-10 by Steve Woolfenden

Make sure that the scanner is not automatically applying USM by default. If
you need to sharpen before printing, try the high pass/hard light technique
instead of USM.

No , the scan is generally done with everything off and then fixed/manipulated afterwards in PS . As a newcomer to digital I'm not sure what you mean by the high pass/hard light method??
Thanks ,
Steve



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-10 by Steve Woolfenden

Hi Daren ,
  A little more info here might be helpful.  Are you seeing the grain only in the final print or on your monitor as well(viewed at 100%)? 
  As daft as it probably sounds I've never really noticed and/or looked hard enough on the monitor to say for sure!!
   Also,what method are you using for sharpening, sometimes using a very low
  threshold in unsharp mask can yield very "grainy" results.
  Ah , now this might have something to do with it! I was fiddling with USM settings recently not really having a clue what I was doing so I might well have cocked it up then . The PS book I have[pretty much my sole reference!] is pretty useless so some guidance on correct settings would be most welcome.
  If I were you I would examine my image workflow from start to finish, is processing of the film an issue (have you made traditional prints)?
  This is something of an issue , but not a major one - the lab I use typically processes all B&W negs in the same developer , so Í do realise I'm not getting quite the best possible quality from them but its still quite acceptable which was confirmed by a friend who is knowledgable in these matters . Having never made traditional silver prints I am at a further disadvantage as I have no benchmark worth speaking of .
  Geez , talk about the blind leading the blind!!
  My scans are generally done with everything switched off and only fiddled with afterwards in PS which makes me think its something afterwards which is causing the grain- like the USM settings you mentioned . I am printing with an Epson 2000P using the regular Epson carts......
  Thanks,
  Steve














[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-10 by frank@culturalvisions.com

It seems that all silver based 35mm b&w films look "grainy" when 
scanned by these new high res film scanners. Is grain so bad?  OK, so 
sometimes it does not enhance an image. I've experimented with the GEM 
setting on my Minolta Multi Pro and am impressed with its ability to 
control "grain."  Unfortunately, it requires C-41 b&w to do the job.  

I guess I could switch to using only XP2 or maybe I'll shoot everything 
in color and decide after scanning if B&W is what I want for each 
particular image.

Nah, for now the answer is to use the biggest negative you can scan.  
Those 6X7 negs sure look good printed digitally. As for 35mm, try XP2.

Frank
http://www.culturalvisions.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steve Woolfenden" <
swoolf@g...> wrote:
> Hi Daren ,
>   A little more info here might be helpful.  Are you seeing the grain onl=
y in the final print or on your monitor as well(viewed at 100%)? 
>   As daft as it probably sounds I've never really noticed and/or looked h=
ard enough on the monitor to say for sure!!
>    Also,what method are you using for sharpening, sometimes using a very =
low
>   threshold in unsharp mask can yield very "grainy" results.
>   Ah , now this might have something to do with it! I was fiddling with U=
SM settings recently not really having a clue what I was doing so I might we=
ll have cocked it up then . The PS book I have[pretty much my sole reference=
!] is pretty useless so some guidance on correct settings would be most welc=
ome.
>   If I were you I would examine my image workflow from start to finish, i=
s processing of the film an issue (have you made traditional prints)?
>   This is something of an issue , but not a major one - the lab I use typ=
ically processes all B&W negs in the same developer , so Í do realise I'm no=
t getting quite the best possible quality from them but its still quite acce=
ptable which was confirmed by a friend who is knowledgable in these matters =
. Having never made traditional silver prints I am at a further disadvantage=
 as I have no benchmark worth speaking of .
>   Geez , talk about the blind leading the blind!!
>   My scans are generally done with everything switched off and only fiddl=
ed with afterwards in PS which makes me think its something afterwards which=
 is causing the grain- like the USM settings you mentioned . I am printing w=
ith an Epson 2000P using the regular Epson carts......
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>   Thanks,
>   Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Jerry Olson

You shouldn't have any grain from Delta 100 film, nor should your prints
show any.

What printer are you using? The older epsons do have a dot pattern that
looks a lot like grain.

Jerry



Steve Woolfenden wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> This is probably a bit off-topic but hopefully someone can offer some advice . I seem to be getting fairly grainy results from B&W negs , at A4 and A3+ , even when using fine grained film[e.g.Delta100] which does not show much grain on the negs . Presumably I am introducing grain during scanning or something? Any ideas why this would happen and what I should do to avoid it?? I'm using a decent scanner [Nikon LS4000] and scanning at max res.....?
> Someone suggested scanning at lower res. but then , presumably , one would have problems making a decent sized print.
> Any help appreciated
> Steve
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Austin Franklin

> You shouldn't have any grain from Delta 100 film, nor should your prints
> show any.

I agree.  I scan D100 at 5080, and there is no visible grain in the scans.
What development are you using?

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Daren M.

Steve,

It sounds to me that your problem is caused by two main factors.  The
first is, as we mentioned, USM.  It's not an easy tool to use without
some guidance.

Here's the best I can give in few sentences:  First zoom the image on
the screen to 100% so it fills nearly the whole monitor (this will help
you determine sharpening effects on the whole image rather than just
through the tiny window in USM's dialog box).  Second, open USM and
enter these amounts as a STARTING point - Amount 125%, Radius 0.5,
Threshold 0.  I usually leave the radius very low (.03 - 1.0), Amount
high (200 - 300%) and Threshold low as well (0 - 4).  I begin working
with the Amount setting and raise it until the image looks SHARP (not
overly sharp, though)!  It will probably be quite grainy, but we'll fix
that with Threshold, just get the fine details that should be sharp
sharp.  If you're having problems using only the Amount try bumping your
radius up a little (only 0.1 - 0.3), you should be getting decent
results by now.  Now it's time to get rid of the most obvious grain in
the image by nudging up the Threshold one point at a time.  It wont take
much, and over doing it will remove the sharpening effects.

My best advice, though, would be to play and make lots of smallish
prints using different settings till you find the ones that work best
for your images!  One of my favorite books for PS is Photoshop 6
Artistry : Mastering the Digital Image by Barry Haynes, and others.
Very nice book, nice examples, decent writing and very helpful.

The second issue that might be contributing to the grain you're seeing
is in printer settings.  How are you printing these B&W images?  Are you
using color and black ink, or only black ink?  Epson printers do a very
poor job using only one color of ink, it is when the dots of the image
are layered over one another that we see very close to continual tone
gradations.  The drawback to printing with all 6 colors is that you will
see color artifacts in the highlights and midtones of your images.
These artifacts aren't very noticeable at regular viewing distances, but
when standing right over the image you'll definitely notice some color.
This is exactly why Quadtone printing is so very cool!

Sincerely,
Daren



Steve Woolfenden wrote:

>   Ah , now this might have something to do with it! I was fiddling
> with USM settings recently not really having a clue what I was doing
> so I might well have cocked it up then . The PS book I have[pretty
> much my sole reference!] is pretty useless so some guidance on correct
> settings would be most welcome.
>   If I were you I would examine my image workflow from start to
> finish, is processing of the film an issue (have you made traditional
> prints)?
>   This is something of an issue , but not a major one - the lab I use
> typically processes all B&W negs in the same developer , so Í do
> realise I'm not getting quite the best possible quality from them but
> its still quite acceptable which was confirmed by a friend who is
> knowledgable in these matters . Having never made traditional silver
> prints I am at a further disadvantage as I have no benchmark worth
> speaking of .
>   Geez , talk about the blind leading the blind!!
>   My scans are generally done with everything switched off and only
> fiddled with afterwards in PS which makes me think its something
> afterwards which is causing the grain- like the USM settings you
> mentioned . I am printing with an Epson 2000P using the regular Epson
> carts......
>   Thanks,
>   Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Gary Benson

Daren M. wrote:
> Second, open USM and enter these amounts as a STARTING point -
> Amount 125%, Radius 0.5, Threshold 0.  I usually leave the 
> radius very low (.03 - 1.0), Amount high (200 - 300%) and Threshold
> low as well (0 - 4).  I begin working with the Amount setting and
> raise it until the image looks SHARP (not
> overly sharp, though)! <snip>

This is terrific!  I can't wait to try this procedure on my own 
images.  I too had noticed what appeared to be excessive "grain" on 
my 35mm scans (Canoscan 2710), even on the Ilford Pan F I shoot most 
often, though the actual print (usually 8x10) looked better than the 
image on the monitor.  I'm headed into the digital darkroom now to 
try this out.  Thanks Daren!

Gary Benson
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Steve Woolfenden

You shouldn't have any grain from Delta 100 film, nor should your prints show any.What printer are you using? The older epsons do have a dot pattern thatlooks a lot like grain.

I'm using the Epson 2000P with standard Epson carts......
Steve




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Steve Woolfenden

I agree.  I scan D100 at 5080, and there is no visible grain in the scans.
What development are you using?

Hi Austin , I dont develop myself , but the lab uses Ilfotech HC - not the best possible combination I realise , but the negs are quite reasonable and certainly not grainy .
Steve



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Steve Woolfenden

Thanks Daren ,
I'll certainly try what you suggest using the USM - if memory serves my settings are not even close!
As for actual printing - I have had half decent[to my undiscerning eye] results from the black ink only , but this is giving very warm results and I realise the smoothness/range  of tones will be compromised . I do quite like contrasty prints so this will sometimes suit......
More recently , I have been fiddling with duotones and quadtones and getting my best results from these - particularly the recipe for "selenium prints" from the luminous landscape web-site [ not withstanding the poxy grain problem] . This has also been another way around the dreaded green cast........
As for the quad/hex inksets , I do plan on trying these sometime soonish - I'm holding off , for the moment , for 2 reasons , firstly I'm getting reasonable results per the above and want to explore this further and , secondly , the prospect of shipping/posting carts , bottles of ink and all the related paraphernalia all the way here[South Africa] is a bit daunting , given the distance/cost and notorious unreliability of our post.....
Having said that , for the first time I saw prints made using a quad inkset just last weekend and was very impressed - dont know which one it was or which printer though .
Thanks ,
Steve
  It sounds to me that your problem is caused by two main factors.  The
  first is, as we mentioned, USM.  It's not an easy tool to use without
  some guidance.

  Here's the best I can give in few sentences:  First zoom the image on
  the screen to 100% so it fills nearly the whole monitor (this will help
  you determine sharpening effects on the whole image rather than just
  through the tiny window in USM's dialog box).  Second, open USM and
  enter these amounts as a STARTING point - Amount 125%, Radius 0.5,
  Threshold 0.  I usually leave the radius very low (.03 - 1.0), Amount
  high (200 - 300%) and Threshold low as well (0 - 4).  I begin working
  with the Amount setting and raise it until the image looks SHARP (not
  overly sharp, though)!  It will probably be quite grainy, but we'll fix
  that with Threshold, just get the fine details that should be sharp
  sharp.  If you're having problems using only the Amount try bumping your
  radius up a little (only 0.1 - 0.3), you should be getting decent
  results by now.  Now it's time to get rid of the most obvious grain in
  the image by nudging up the Threshold one point at a time.  It wont take
  much, and over doing it will remove the sharpening effects.

  My best advice, though, would be to play and make lots of smallish
  prints using different settings till you find the ones that work best
  for your images!  One of my favorite books for PS is Photoshop 6
  Artistry : Mastering the Digital Image by Barry Haynes, and others.
  Very nice book, nice examples, decent writing and very helpful.

  The second issue that might be contributing to the grain you're seeing
  is in printer settings.  How are you printing these B&W images?  Are you
  using color and black ink, or only black ink?  Epson printers do a very
  poor job using only one color of ink, it is when the dots of the image
  are layered over one another that we see very close to continual tone
  gradations.  The drawback to printing with all 6 colors is that you will
  see color artifacts in the highlights and midtones of your images.
  These artifacts aren't very noticeable at regular viewing distances, but
  when standing right over the image you'll definitely notice some color.
  This is exactly why Quadtone printing is so very cool!

  Sincerely,
  Daren



  Steve Woolfenden wrote:

  >   Ah , now this might have something to do with it! I was fiddling
  > with USM settings recently not really having a clue what I was doing
  > so I might well have cocked it up then . The PS book I have[pretty
  > much my sole reference!] is pretty useless so some guidance on correct
  > settings would be most welcome.
  >   If I were you I would examine my image workflow from start to
  > finish, is processing of the film an issue (have you made traditional
  > prints)?
  >   This is something of an issue , but not a major one - the lab I use
  > typically processes all B&W negs in the same developer , so Í do
  > realise I'm not getting quite the best possible quality from them but
  > its still quite acceptable which was confirmed by a friend who is
  > knowledgable in these matters . Having never made traditional silver
  > prints I am at a further disadvantage as I have no benchmark worth
  > speaking of .
  >   Geez , talk about the blind leading the blind!!
  >   My scans are generally done with everything switched off and only
  > fiddled with afterwards in PS which makes me think its something
  > afterwards which is causing the grain- like the USM settings you
  > mentioned . I am printing with an Epson 2000P using the regular Epson
  > carts......
  >   Thanks,
  >   Steve


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

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  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Jerry Olson

That printer does show a VERY fine dot pattern, but it really doesn't
resemble film grain. I think you are somehow adding too much sharpening
to your images.

Jerry




Steve Woolfenden wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> You shouldn't have any grain from Delta 100 film, nor should your prints show any.What printer are you using? The older epsons do have a dot pattern thatlooks a lot like grain.
> 
> I'm using the Epson 2000P with standard Epson carts......
> Steve
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Steve Woolfenden

I'm using 35mm gear and I tried XP2 one time but didnt like the look of it at all [very low contrast]. But that was before scanning etc , now , maybe I should reconsider some of the C-41 B&W films - they certainly have convenience on their side . The Kodak ones[especially the Portra one] seem to be highly regarded by many .
Steve

  It seems that all silver based 35mm b&w films look "grainy" when 
  scanned by these new high res film scanners. Is grain so bad?  OK, so 
  sometimes it does not enhance an image. I've experimented with the GEM 
  setting on my Minolta Multi Pro and am impressed with its ability to 
  control "grain."  Unfortunately, it requires C-41 b&w to do the job.  

  I guess I could switch to using only XP2 or maybe I'll shoot everything 
  in color and decide after scanning if B&W is what I want for each 
  particular image.

  Nah, for now the answer is to use the biggest negative you can scan.  
  Those 6X7 negs sure look good printed digitally. As for 35mm, try XP2.

  Frank
  http://www.culturalvisions.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re(2): [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Cort Anderson

>You shouldn't have any grain from Delta 100 film, nor should your prints
>show any.What printer are you using? The older epsons do have a dot
>pattern thatlooks a lot like grain.

Chances are you are not seeing actual film grain in your prints but
rather digital noise, most likely from UnSharp Masking as others have
suggested. Professional Photoshop 6 by Dan Margulis has an excellent
chapter on sharpening.

cort anderson
www.trwheels.com

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by SKID Photography

Cort Anderson wrote:

> >You shouldn't have any grain from Delta 100 film, nor should your prints
> >show any.What printer are you using? The older epsons do have a dot
> >pattern thatlooks a lot like grain.
>
> Chances are you are not seeing actual film grain in your prints but
> rather digital noise, most likely from UnSharp Masking as others have
> suggested. Professional Photoshop 6 by Dan Margulis has an excellent
> chapter on sharpening.
>

Digital 'noise' is not the same thing as the artifacts one gets from using unsharp mask, and should not be
confused.  I think there is a different term to use for the USM artifacts, although I don't know what,
specifically, to call them, beyond 'artifact' or 'halo'.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Re(2): [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Steve Woolfenden

Chances are you are not seeing actual film grain in your prints butrather digital noise, most likely from UnSharp Masking as others have suggested. Professional Photoshop 6 by Dan Margulis has an excellent chapter on sharpening.

Thanks , I'm using PS 5.5 but imagine their isnt much difference in the sharpening features...
Maybe its time to upgrade anyway .
Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Re(2): [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-11 by Carolyn Frayn

Steve, 

The USM is the same but the color management is totally revamped, that alone
(for me) was worth the upgrade.


Carolyn
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Thanks , I'm using PS 5.5 but imagine their isnt much difference in the
> sharpening features...
> Maybe its time to upgrade anyway .
> Steve

Re: Re(2): [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-12 by Steve Woolfenden

The USM is the same but the color management is totally revamped, that alone
(for me) was worth the upgrade.


Carolyn , after all the hooha I'm going through to get decent B&W prints , I'm not sure if I'm strong enough to take a crack at colour too! 
Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-12 by Steve Woolfenden

Daren , thanks for your help with USM - havent had a chance to fiddle too much yet , but am already getting far better results .
Thanks again .
Steve
  It sounds to me that your problem is caused by two main factors.  The
  first is, as we mentioned, USM.  It's not an easy tool to use without
  some guidance.

  Here's the best I can give in few sentences:  First zoom the image on
  the screen to 100% so it fills nearly the whole monitor (this will help
  you determine sharpening effects on the whole image rather than just
  through the tiny window in USM's dialog box).  Second, open USM and
  enter these amounts as a STARTING point - Amount 125%, Radius 0.5,
  Threshold 0.  I usually leave the radius very low (.03 - 1.0), Amount
  high (200 - 300%) and Threshold low as well (0 - 4).  I begin working
  with the Amount setting and raise it until the image looks SHARP (not
  overly sharp, though)!  It will probably be quite grainy, but we'll fix
  that with Threshold, just get the fine details that should be sharp
  sharp.  If you're having problems using only the Amount try bumping your
  radius up a little (only 0.1 - 0.3), you should be getting decent
  results by now.  Now it's time to get rid of the most obvious grain in
  the image by nudging up the Threshold one point at a time.  It wont take
  much, and over doing it will remove the sharpening effects.

  My best advice, though, would be to play and make lots of smallish
  prints using different settings till you find the ones that work best
  for your images!  One of my favorite books for PS is Photoshop 6
  Artistry : Mastering the Digital Image by Barry Haynes, and others.
  Very nice book, nice examples, decent writing and very helpful.

  The second issue that might be contributing to the grain you're seeing
  is in printer settings.  How are you printing these B&W images?  Are you
  using color and black ink, or only black ink?  Epson printers do a very
  poor job using only one color of ink, it is when the dots of the image
  are layered over one another that we see very close to continual tone
  gradations.  The drawback to printing with all 6 colors is that you will
  see color artifacts in the highlights and midtones of your images.
  These artifacts aren't very noticeable at regular viewing distances, but
  when standing right over the image you'll definitely notice some color.
  This is exactly why Quadtone printing is so very cool!

  Sincerely,
  Daren



  Steve Woolfenden wrote:

  >   Ah , now this might have something to do with it! I was fiddling
  > with USM settings recently not really having a clue what I was doing
  > so I might well have cocked it up then . The PS book I have[pretty
  > much my sole reference!] is pretty useless so some guidance on correct
  > settings would be most welcome.
  >   If I were you I would examine my image workflow from start to
  > finish, is processing of the film an issue (have you made traditional
  > prints)?
  >   This is something of an issue , but not a major one - the lab I use
  > typically processes all B&W negs in the same developer , so Í do
  > realise I'm not getting quite the best possible quality from them but
  > its still quite acceptable which was confirmed by a friend who is
  > knowledgable in these matters . Having never made traditional silver
  > prints I am at a further disadvantage as I have no benchmark worth
  > speaking of .
  >   Geez , talk about the blind leading the blind!!
  >   My scans are generally done with everything switched off and only
  > fiddled with afterwards in PS which makes me think its something
  > afterwards which is causing the grain- like the USM settings you
  > mentioned . I am printing with an Epson 2000P using the regular Epson
  > carts......
  >   Thanks,
  >   Steve


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-12 by mh@toomanyartists.com

Digital noise is not the same thing as artifacts from USM but everyone 
should be aware that too much (or improper) USMasking can make normally 
low-visibility noise more visible.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Digital 'noise' is not the same thing as the artifacts one gets from using unsharp mask, and should not be
> confused.  I think there is a different term to use for the USM artifacts, although I don't know what,
> specifically, to call them, beyond 'artifact' or 'halo'.
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Re(2): [Digital BW] Grain on B&W film??

2001-11-12 by Carolyn Frayn

Steve, the color management is beneficial for black and white printing
too... soft proofing feature, ridding yourself of that <use monitor
compensation> confusion etc...  ;-)

Carolyn
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Carolyn , after all the hooha I'm going through to get decent B&W prints , I'm
> not sure if I'm strong enough to take a crack at colour too!
> Steve

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