Digital BW, The Print

The more I try to learn the more confused I become with all of this. 

(1) Are the MIS EZ Inks for the C86 pure carbon (for Matte prints - Eboni in use)? No dye in 
those? 

(2) My prints would be used mostly in these ways: (a) displayed under glass (b) displayed 
in an album (c) made into a book with 2 sided pages. If printing on the suggested matte 
fine art type papers - do I need to spray the prints? If so, why?  

By the way, who owns MIS? 

Thanks, 
-Lynn

You don't NEED to.

I think people are spraying the semi-glossy and glossy paper to help 
eliminate bronzing. It also will make prints more water-resistant and 
provides a little more d-max.

But I don't even know if you can use those sprays on a matte paper. 
The limited amount of spraying I've done, it never worked on the 
matte papers.

I've never used Premier Artshield, though. Some maybe you can use 
that on matte papers.

I don't like spraying, but if I ever feel a need to, I'll go with 
Premier Artshield. PAS also extents the longevity of the print 
(according to Wilhelm Research).

I sure Paul will comment here. He uses the PAS.

Scott

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pfictionpfledgling" 
<contax@s...> wrote:
> 
> The more I try to learn the more confused I become with all of 
this. 
> 
> (1) Are the MIS EZ Inks for the C86 pure carbon (for Matte prints - 
Eboni in use)? No dye in 
> those? 
> 
> (2) My prints would be used mostly in these ways: (a) displayed 
under glass (b) displayed 
> in an album (c) made into a book with 2 sided pages. If printing on 
the suggested matte 

> fine art type papers - do I need to spray the prints? If so, why?  
> 
> By the way, who owns MIS? 
> 
> Thanks, 
> -Lynn

I too would prefer to avoid spray if possible. I'm glad to hear it is not a necessity for my 
situation. Thanks for your thoughts. -Lynn

I use Premiere-art Printsheild. I think that is what you are referring 
to, and It does not really work on matte papers. It wont help with 
flaking on rag either. It does not add any quality to the image like it 
does when adding a little DMax on the glossy papers. You can see it on 
the glossy surface if you look real close. I usually rub them with a 
"micro-fiber" cloth the smooth out feel, and get off little bits of 
overspray. It does not smell real bad like some of the others like 
Krylon, which stinks bad. and looks pretty bad too....DOug M
On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:56 AM, scott_now_coming wrote:

>
>  You don't NEED to.
>
>  I think people are spraying the semi-glossy and glossy paper to help
>  eliminate bronzing. It also will make prints more water-resistant and
>  provides a little more d-max.
>
>  But I don't even know if you can use those sprays on a matte paper.
>  The limited amount of spraying I've done, it never worked on the
>  matte papers.
>
>  I've never used Premier Artshield, though. Some maybe you can use
>  that on matte papers.
>
>  I don't like spraying, but if I ever feel a need to, I'll go with
>  Premier Artshield. PAS also extents the longevity of the print
>  (according to Wilhelm Research).
>
>  I sure Paul will comment here. He uses the PAS.
>
>  Scott
>
>  --- In
>  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pfictionpfledgling"
>  <contax@s...> wrote:
>  >
>  > The more I try to learn the more confused I become with all of
>  this.
>  >
>  > (1) Are the MIS EZ Inks for the C86 pure carbon (for Matte prints -
>  Eboni in use)? No dye in
>  > those?
>  >
>  > (2) My prints would be used mostly in these ways: (a) displayed
>  under glass (b) displayed
>  > in an album (c) made into a book with 2 sided pages. If printing on
>  the suggested matte
>  > fine art type papers - do I need to spray the prints? If so, why?�
>  >
>  > By the way, who owns MIS?
>  >
>  > Thanks,
>  > -Lynn
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are correct.

Thanks for bringing that to the thread's attention.  :>)


Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Meeuwsen 
<lipshurt@m...> wrote:
> I use Premiere-art Printsheild. I think that is what you are 
referring 
> to, and It does not really work on matte papers. It wont help with 
> flaking on rag either. It does not add any quality to the image 
like it 
> does when adding a little DMax on the glossy papers. You can see it 
on 
> the glossy surface if you look real close. I usually rub them with 
a 
> "micro-fiber" cloth the smooth out feel, and get off little bits of 
> overspray. It does not smell real bad like some of the others like 
> Krylon, which stinks bad. and looks pretty bad too....DOug M
> On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:56 AM, scott_now_coming wrote:
> 
> >
> >  You don't NEED to.
> >
> >  I think people are spraying the semi-glossy and glossy paper to 
help
> >  eliminate bronzing. It also will make prints more water-
resistant and
> >  provides a little more d-max.
> >
> >  But I don't even know if you can use those sprays on a matte 
paper.
> >  The limited amount of spraying I've done, it never worked on the
> >  matte papers.
> >
> >  I've never used Premier Artshield, though. Some maybe you can use
> >  that on matte papers.
> >
> >  I don't like spraying, but if I ever feel a need to, I'll go with
> >  Premier Artshield. PAS also extents the longevity of the print
> >  (according to Wilhelm Research).
> >
> >  I sure Paul will comment here. He uses the PAS.
> >
> >  Scott
> >
> >  --- In
> >  
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pfictionpfledgling"
> >  <contax@s...> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > The more I try to learn the more confused I become with all of
> >  this.
> >  >
> >  > (1) Are the MIS EZ Inks for the C86 pure carbon (for Matte 
prints -
> >  Eboni in use)? No dye in
> >  > those?
> >  >
> >  > (2) My prints would be used mostly in these ways: (a) displayed
> >  under glass (b) displayed
> >  > in an album (c) made into a book with 2 sided pages. If 
printing on
> >  the suggested matte
> >  > fine art type papers - do I need to spray the prints? If so, 
why? 
> >  >
> >  > By the way, who owns MIS?
> >  >
> >  > Thanks,
> >  > -Lynn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish 
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting 
> > this same page.
> >
> >  Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to 
> > keep them short.
> >  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from 
> > the membership without notice.
> >  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital 
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> > removed from the membership.
> >  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and 
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group 
> > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in 
the 
> > Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> >  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE 
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" 
> > AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT 
BE 
> > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE 
> > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT 
> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
DAMAGES), 
> > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL 
BW, 
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION 
OF 
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD 
> > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > 	• 	To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> >  
> > 	• 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >  
> > 	• 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 
Terms of 

> > Service.
> >
> >  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Douglas Meeuwsen wrote:
> I use Premiere-art Printsheild. I think that is what you are referring 
> to, and It does not really work on matte papers. It wont help with 
> flaking on rag either. It does not add any quality to the image like it 
> does when adding a little DMax on the glossy papers. 

Wilhelm's test reports indicate that this spray significantly increases 
the lifetime of Epson UC prints made on some of the matte papers he's 
tested.

So, even if it doesn't help with flaking, and doesn't add DMax as it 
does on the glossy papers, I wouldn't say it "doesn't really work on 
matte papers".


	Walt

I guess it can be used with matte papers.

I wasn't even sure it would work on matte. Other sprays I've used 
always ruined a matte print.

Here's a link to Wilhelm's site and the UC ink/paper test for anyone 
interested:


http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/9600.html


Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walt Farrell 
<wftemp1@h...> wrote:
> Douglas Meeuwsen wrote:
> > I use Premiere-art Printsheild. I think that is what you are 
referring 
> > to, and It does not really work on matte papers. It wont help 
with 
> > flaking on rag either. It does not add any quality to the image 
like it 
> > does when adding a little DMax on the glossy papers. 
> 
> Wilhelm's test reports indicate that this spray significantly 
increases 
> the lifetime of Epson UC prints made on some of the matte papers 
he's 
> tested.
> 
> So, even if it doesn't help with flaking, and doesn't add DMax as 
it 
> does on the glossy papers, I wouldn't say it "doesn't really work 
on 

> matte papers".
> 
> 
> 	Walt

Lynn,

>Are the MIS EZ Inks for the C86 pure carbon

The black and warm EZ inks are pure carbon.  The EZ-N midtones are
predominantly carbon but also have "blue" pigments in them to neutralize the
warm carbon tone.

(for Matte prints - Eboni in use)?

Both Eboni and MIS PK are carbon.  

> No dye in those? 

There are no dyes in any of the UT family of inks are far as I have been
told or am able to discover.

>My prints would be used mostly in these ways: (a) displayed under glass 
>(b) displayed in an album (c) made into a book with 2 sided pages. 
>If printing on the suggested matte fine art type papers - 
>do I need to spray the prints? If so, why?  

You do not need to spray the prints.  It might, however, be wise to spray
those that are going to be in the book.  The pigment prints can be scuffed,
especially in heavy black areas.  Lascaux Fixativ spray helps the carbon
adhere and makes them significantly less likely for people thumbing through
the book to damage the images.  Lascaux is Rohm & Haas B72, a well known,
archival acrylic.  It has no significant affect on the look of the print.
This is unlike PremierArt Print Shield, which lowers the dmax of matte
prints.

>By the way, who owns MIS? 

It is, as far as I know, owned by Bob and Julie Zeiss.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Yea, I don't get what he is talking about there either. I've been using the Premier Art and 
Lyson Printguard, which is essentially the same thing, for nearly four years. To say it does 
not protect against flaking is just plain wrong. I do a ton of work on Hahnemuhle Photo 
Rag, German Etching, and William Turner rag, all of which can flake and skuff badly when a 
lot of blacks are laid down. These sprays not only help, but they help significantly. I also 
use them with all the canvas pigment prints I do as well as Premium Luster, Enhanced 
Matte, and Legion Matte. It improves the surface of all this media is a big way. You should 
give one light coat, then wait 5 minutes and so another light coat. It is still a good idea to 
brush your rag rolls lightly to remove any loose coating on the surface BEFORE printing. If 
you use the new Ultra Smooth rag media then these sprays make that media almost 
indestructable because the coating is so far down in the media, rather than on top. This is 
what I do for hand made book projects.

When it comes to dual sided rag and matte media, it can mean the difference between a 
book project being feasable or not.  

The only down side I have ever seen with Premier Art or Lyson Printguard is that when 
printing carbon pigment monochrome prints that contain a lot of pure black, that the d-
max can be reduced a little. In that case I use another archival non-yellowing spray called 
Lascaux. Lascaux protects against flaking, skuffing and scratching, but does not have the 
major uv protection that the other two sprays exhibit. Paul Roark told us about this on the 
digital black and white yahoo list. He has experimented with a lot of these sprays.

For me these sprays complete the UltraChrome process and bring them close to the uv
stability range of my Epson 10K pigment printer. Without them I wouldn't even be printing 
on Photo Rag at all.

John

> So, even if it doesn't help with flaking, and doesn't add DMax as it 
> does on the glossy papers, I wouldn't say it "doesn't really work on 
> matte papers".
> 
> 
> 	Walt

>> ... Premiere-art Printsheild...

>Wilhelm's test reports indicate that this spray significantly increases 
>the lifetime of Epson UC prints made on some of the matte papers he's 
>tested.

My tests show the same thing with UC pigments.  However, while the UC pigs
get about 30% better fade resistance in my tests, the MIS pigs only get
about 10% better.  I've been a bit suspicious that the MIS base already has
a UV barrier in it, which might account for the superior test results I see
with them.  When the UC pigs are sprayed with PremierArt, their fade
resistance in my tests jumps up to about the MIS level, with their delta e
actually being a bit better.  The problem is that the PremierArt spray
significantly decreases the dmax, unlike the Lascaux Fixative.  But the
Lascaux does not have UV absorbers in it and does not increase the fade
resistance.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks so much for the help, Paul and everyone. I think (hope) I have a grip on this now. 

Best, 
-Lynn