Digital BW, The Print

Hello,

Sorry for the long post but this info might save lives.

I had problems with UT2 carts for my 1280 that are now resolved. My 
sanity was tested by this problem as I wasted tons of valuable time 
and missed some opportunities because of it. I hope this post might 
help anyone else experiencing the same problem. By the way, I bought 
the bad carts in December. I would have posted this sooner but I 
wanted to receive my replacement carts (got them yesterday) and make 
absolutely sure the other carts were bad.

If you are experiencing all or most of the problems below you 
probably have a bad UT2 1280 cart. As much frustration as MIS has 
caused me with their mistake (everyone makes them) I would hate to 
initiate a landslide of complaints and replacement requests because 
people are experiencing problems that aren't related to bad
carts. 
Choosing the wrong settings or printer malfunction can obviously 
make prints look poor too.

1. Contrast in darker values seems very low (ugly, ugly)

2. Darker values in the 21-step wedge are very similar in value. The 
range was roughly 65% to 85% in my case. This value compression was 
easy to see regardless of which method I used to print (Paul's 
curves, QTR, Epson sliders). My current step wedges look pretty good 
with the replacement inks. 

3. QTR Neutral prints slightly warm. Now it's a little on the
cool 
side to my eye but very nice to look at.

4. Dither patterns in light values look coarse. I had a portion of a 
light gray wall that exhibited this, giving it slightly a dirty 
look. In the bad cart the LM position turned out to be almost as 
dark as Photo Black (maybe it was) instead of the medium/light gray 
it should have been. The dither pattern in the same print with my 
current replacement cart is very subtle and smooth.

5. You bought the UT2 carts in December. Who knows how big the bad 
batch was but I got feedback from other group members who had the 
same problem and they bought their carts in December

To make a long story only slightly shorter, I contacted MIS via 
their email technical support system (big mistake if your in a 
hurry) and started a dialogue with them. Typically, I would write 
that I've read all the literature and support information
available 
and tried all the various methods of printing known to humans and 
I've come to the conclusion that I got a bad cart, may I have a 
replacement please. Two days later I would get an email with a link 
to some support info that I'd told them in my previous email
I'd 
read many times. In the end, I spazzed out and jammed some stripped 
down Q-tips into the seals of each ink on the bottom of the cart. I 
ruined the cartridge but painted some nice swab patches that clearly 
indicated that the LM position was filled with ink that was too 
dark. MIS agreed when they got the scan of my patches. A syringe 
would have been the proper method for extracting ink but I was 
overcome with frustration and my action served as a kind of 
emotional release.

Now that I've got the right inks the prints are beautiful and I
will 
definitely be buying more MIS products. I have been told they are 
working hard to resolve these issues so they don't happen in the 
future. I've also heard that clear, refillable carts for the 1280 
are forthcoming.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for the info!  It seems that I have one of those cartidges (haven't called MIS yet to 
confirm, though... figures I'd find this out on a weekend!)

My prints and step wedges exhibit all of the symptoms you describe.  I had previously 
posted about seeing dots in the highlights, and even posted some examples.  Paul Roark 
sent me a step wedge that he printed which looked absoutely perfect, so I was left 
wondering what I was doing wrong.  This was my first time using UT2, so I didn't have 
anything to compare it to.

I subsequently bought a UT-FSN cartridge, and the prints are coming out wonderfully, so I 
decided to forget about my UT2 cartridge, as I'll probably stick with FSN.

At least I know I'm not crazy.  Someone else had mentioned to me the possibility of a bad 
cartridge-- I guess I should have followed up on that and saved some headaches!

-Steve

Jim,

>I had problems with UT2 carts for my 1280 that are now resolved. 

[big clip]

Thanks for posting the experience.  

MIS has just started loading its own cartridges, and they may not have their
procedures to stop and catch mistakes sufficiently refined (to state the
obvious).

I have placed test files on my webpage at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Test-files.htm that will also help people see
if they have the correct inks loaded.


>...swab patches that clearly indicated that the LM position was 
>filled with ink that was too dark. 

>MIS agreed when they got the scan of my patches. ...

I think people would be well advised to print purge patterns of their inks
and use these to quality control the inks.  This is easy to do and will help
protect your sanity.

>Now that I've got the right inks the prints are beautiful ...


>I've also heard that clear, refillable carts for the 1280 
>are forthcoming.


Yes, I have some.  They are WONDERFUL.  Of course, I loaded one incorrectly
yesterday, but it happens.

Of interest, I had an LC loaded that had the wrong blue mix in it.  Rather
than throw the cart away, I was able to pull the ink out of the cart loading
hole with a syringe, they use a bottom fill adapter (snout cut to a 7 mm) to
pull the bad ink out of the outlet.  I then put about 10 cc of good ink in
the reservoir, sloshed it around, and pulled it out through the outlet with
a bottom-fill adapter.  This rinsed out the bad ink.  I then filled the cart
with the correct ink, did 2 cleaning cycles to be sure the old ink was out
of the head, and the prints were perfect.

The point is, these new sponge-less carts are so good that even incorrect
mixing and filling (within limits, I'm sure) can be corrected.

Anyone who is handy enough to have ever worked in a darkroom or is otherwise
not afraid to get a little ink on the fingers should soon be filling their
own easy-refill 1280 carts.  The savings and flexibility of working from
bulk inks is well worth it.  

Once we're filling our own carts, we'll just need to know what the bulk ink
should look like.  Making Q-tip swabs from the bottles on EEM are accurate
enough to quality control the inks before you load them.  Just keep
reference swabs handy and check every new bottle you receive before using
it.  If this is done before you run out of the old ink, you'll have enough
time to correct the problem and never be left without good ink.

In short, quality control will soon be easily within our abilities.

These sponge-less carts are not ready to ship yet.  MIS does more than just
buy and sell these things.  The chips need to be aligned, and there is a
clear label that overlaps the fill holes and stops the stoppers from
sealing.  With the label, I used a razor knife to ream out the top or the
holes and remove the offending lip of the labels.  

When MIS solves the issues with these carts and has an inventory of good
ones, I'll post it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Steve,
I'm thinking about trying the UT-FSN set to see how "ditherless" I 
can get. Is it truly neutral, how is the dither pattern, it has a 
lighter light gray I think?
-Jim

> 
> I subsequently bought a UT-FSN cartridge, and the prints are 
coming out wonderfully, so I 
> decided to forget about my UT2 cartridge, as I'll probably stick 
with FSN.
> -Steve

UT-FSN is quite neutral.  I've been printing on EEM, and the results are very nice.

The cartridge for the 1280 contains three gray inks (dark, medium, light), with the dark 
and medium ink repeated to fill out the five positions.  Highlights are dotless, even at 
close inspection, and all tones are very smooth.

-Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jimpegoda" <pegoda@c...> 
wrote:

> 
> Steve,
> I'm thinking about trying the UT-FSN set to see how "ditherless" I 
> can get. Is it truly neutral, how is the dither pattern, it has a 
> lighter light gray I think?
> -Jim
>

I have a cart in my 1280 now that has basically FSN-tone inks in the C & LC
and carbon in M & LM.  The twists are that the C is actually PKN, and the M
is PK.  The LC is 7500UT-FSN-LC (mixed per my 7500 Readme), which is about
the same density as the UT2-LM carbon that is in the LM.

I have glop in Y, but for the smoothest prints, UT-FS(N)-Y could be put in
the Y spot.

The reason I didn't go with the straight FSN densities is that the 2
lightest FS ink mixes are very light.  Then there is too much of a gap to
the C density.  Especially when these are in both C and M positions, this
floods glossy papers.  By having more rational ink densities this can be
avoided.  Also, the carbon in the other channel allows profiling the shadows
of the papers that have excessively cold shadows.

Of course, the PKN allows a great dmax.

The curves for printing are really simple.  With the Epson driver the file
does need to be RGB, but then the red curve is all that needs to be used for
a glossy neutral print.  So, it's like a monotone inkset.  To turn on the
Eboni, which I keep in the K position, the other curves do need to be
dropped at the last minute.

The denser inks produce less bronzing.  With the Epson driver the lack of
control of the C-LC crossover hinders the ability to deal with this, but
with Costco paper, I'm not sure glop is needed.  That, of course, means that
the FS-Y could be in Y for totally smooth highlights.  Just use if for the
first 10% or so, and then turn it off completely.  The blue curve can do
this easily.

With the 2200 I will be trying to see if I can use a RIP to make curves that
do away with the need for glop.   It might be possible with this type of ink
setup and the best glossy papers (Costco and Premium Semimatte).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
 
_______________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen P. Veillette [mailto:stephen@...] 
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 8:42 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: bad UT2 1280 carts confirmed



UT-FSN is quite neutral.  I've been printing on EEM, and the results are
very nice.

The cartridge for the 1280 contains three gray inks (dark, medium, light),
with the dark 
and medium ink repeated to fill out the five positions.  Highlights are
dotless, even at 
close inspection, and all tones are very smooth.

-Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jimpegoda"
<pegoda@c...> 
wrote:
> 
> Steve,
> I'm thinking about trying the UT-FSN set to see how "ditherless" I 
> can get. Is it truly neutral, how is the dither pattern, it has a 
> lighter light gray I think?
> -Jim
> 






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I guess I would like to hear a layman's description from an ink chemist as
to what bronzing is and it's cause.  We know what the symptoms are but what
is it that we are seeing?  Apparently, the R800 exhibits bronzing and it
doesn't have a light black ink.  I suspect the causes of bronzing are
inherent in all the latest (non dye) inks we are using - either dedicated
B&W or colour.  (It is not just a B&W phenomenon and is visible in the
colour sections of UC prints - especially if you coat just a portion of the
print with glop to have a comparison.)  I don't know what sort of research
team MIS runs but they at least have a chemist who develops the basic inks.
Perhaps, given your relationship with them, you could get us all a better
basic insight into the issue.  The big benefit of a coating (as opposed to
an ink solution or glop in the mix) is that the reflectance of the printed
paper can be evened out as well as the bronzing "treated".  My bet is the
two are very closely related and that only a paper that can fully absorb
today's ink (a la dyes) will provide a solution better than a coating.

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

> 
> With the 2200 I will be trying to see if I can use a RIP to make curves that
> do away with the need for glop.   It might be possible with this type of ink
> setup and the best glossy papers (Costco and Premium Semimatte).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>  
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jimpegoda" 
<pegoda@c...> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Sorry for the long post but this info might save lives.

Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!!

I had the same symptoms (although I bought my cartridges in early
January).  I printed Paul Roark's purge pattern, and it does not look
like the jpeg.

Thank you so much for your work.  I sympathize with your frustrations.
Trying "just one more thing" can kill alot of time!!  

And thank you for sharing the results of your work with the
group!!!