Digital BW, The Print

Excuse me for asking if this has been asked before but what is the 
significance of QImage and Picture Window in relationship to QTR for 
Windows. I noted a bit of conversation a few posts back. 
John H

Mr_Misty_44 wrote:
> 
> 
> Excuse me for asking if this has been asked before but what is the 
> significance of QImage and Picture Window in relationship to QTR for 
> Windows. I noted a bit of conversation a few posts back. 
> John H

Qimage, Picture Window Pro and Vuescan all have LCMS as their 
color engine, PWP however gives a choice between the M$ and 
LCMS color engine.
Next to Photoshop CS I'm using PWP sometimes as it is faster 
with many features and 16 bit throughout. It was also 
recommended on this list as a cheaper alternative for PS.
The QTR  ICC profiles should have a universal use, testing 
them in all the applications is a good proof whether that is 
true. If there are limitations it may be better to find them now.

Ernst

Tried some combinations today:

QTR's latest set of profiles,16-2-2005

Vuescan, PWP, PS-CS, Qimage.

ACE, ICM, CMM, LCMS color engines.

With and without Black Point Compensation.

Zuber RGB Black target converted to 48 bit and the QTR RGB Lab
assigned to it -plus
of that file a conversion to 16 bit Greyscale target + QTR
Grey Lab
assigned to it.

Checked the RGB numbers of the P2P conversions or the "files
printed"in Photoshop.

Vuescan doesn't allow a choice of a color space to assign to
the scanned image other than from an internal list of color
space profiles. The last is a nice list for color images so
there's no reason to complain: AdobeRGB, Colormatch, Bruce,
Wide Gamut, Ektaspace etc. But adding another one from Windows
resources isn't possible. We have to ask Ed Hamrick for the
possibility to add either QTR RGB-Lab or QTR Gray-Lab to that
list. The printer profiles show but I do not see a need for
adding printer profiles to scanner software. Not having the
color space makes it impossible to check the workings of the
LCMS color engine with the profiles. The choices of B&W film
calibrations are quite good ( with developer times etc in the
manual for some films) so the film input side is reasonably
well covered, it is possible to make custom film profiles but
that's usually only done with color slide film. It doesn't
mean that there couldn't be a new B&W custom calibration added
but that's Ed territory.

Picture Window Pro.
To put it simple, avoid Picture Window Pro when you intend to
use QTR's profiles, color space and printer profiles
altogether, choice of LCMS or ICM color engine doesn't
matter. It is totally unpredictable, softproof shows
reversing of the image, errors, program goes flat in an
instance etc.  A neutral RGB file with the QTR RGB Lab space
profile assigned can be used but avoid profile conversions
etc. I think the program needs more than bugs taken out on
color management.

Qimage.
I don't think that the new QTR profiles are working nice
either in Qimage with its LCMS color engine. Best is the RGB
input with the QTR RGB Lab as its space and QTR Photo Paper as
the printer profile, even then there are differences to the PS
CS ACE conversions. Ferdinand has written about the deep
shadows but I see differences up to the 56 RGB number, the
Qimage numbers stay lower there.

Photoshop. CS
I have three color engine choices in PS now: ACE, ICM, CMM.
The last is the Kodak engine that came with the Kodak Color
Custom Tools. What can be expected ACE does it right, CMM
does it almost exactly like ACE in all choices. ICM
with Black Point Compensation on is not correct. Roy should
add a comment to the profile Read Me that it is better to use
ACE in PS CS for correct conversions.

Based on this I will keep my workflow as follows:
Scanning B&W film in Vuescan, filmtype selected that suits the 
real film best, AdobeRGB as the output color space, 16 bit 
grey Tiff, the Tiff will not have AdobeRGB assigned but gets 
the 2.2 Gamma when AdobeRGB is selected as the general output 
space in Vuescan,  import in PS on ACE color engine, P2P 
convert to QRT Gray-Lab with Black Point Compensation, save, 
edit, save, convert in PS to one of the QTR Gray paper 
profiles with BPC on. Then either print through Qimage with CM 
off or directly through QTR.

This way it can be a 16 bit greyscale Tiff for most of the 
time, have all the advantages of the right previews, and a 
consistent color management. I find it now more interesting to 
get the QTR Gray-Lab profile assigned to a greyscale Tiff in 
Vuescan than getting it right in Qimage. The water at that 
side has to calm down first I think.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Tried some combinations today:
> ...........
>The water at that side has to calm down first I think.

I think that's right.  But we've made a lot of progress, and Qimage is
again useable for B&W, at least in my opinion and for my purposes.

Thanks for your efforts too.  Much more comprehensive than mine.

F_P

>Vuescan doesn't allow a choice of a color space to assign to
>the scanned image other than from an internal list of color
>space profiles. The last is a nice list for color images so
>there's no reason to complain: AdobeRGB, Colormatch, Bruce,
>Wide Gamut, Ektaspace etc. But adding another one from Windows
>resources isn't possible. We have to ask Ed Hamrick for the
>possibility to add either QTR RGB-Lab or QTR Gray-Lab to that
>list. The printer profiles show but I do not see a need for
>adding printer profiles to scanner software. Not having the
>color space makes it impossible to check the workings of the
>LCMS color engine with the profiles. The choices of B&W film
>calibrations are quite good ( with developer times etc in the
>manual for some films) so the film input side is reasonably
>well covered, it is possible to make custom film profiles but
>that's usually only done with color slide film. It doesn't
>mean that there couldn't be a new B&W custom calibration added
>but that's Ed territory.
>  
>

Asked Ed Hamrick to add the two Lab spaces to Vuescan but he doesn't see 
technical reasons to add them to the software. He is right on that 
aspect, saving a 16 bit greyscale TIFF with 2.2 gamma and converting to 
QTR Gray-Lab with BPC on in PS CS will not give a loss in tone mapping. 
It would be more convenient though to have it done in Vuescan already.

Ernst

Ernst:

In Vuescan's Color Preference setup, I see you can specify printer, 
monitor, scanner, and output color space. I have tried and you can 
specify qtr gray lab as an output space. So why would Ed have to do 
anything?

Leslie Otterbein


On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 03:14  AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> Asked Ed Hamrick to add the two Lab spaces to Vuescan but he doesn't 
> see
> technical reasons to add them to the software. He is right on that
> aspect, saving a 16 bit greyscale TIFF with 2.2 gamma and converting to
> QTR Gray-Lab with BPC on in PS CS will not give a loss in tone mapping.
> It would be more convenient though to have it done in Vuescan already.
>
 From the heart of the Kootenays


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Leslie Otterbein wrote:

>Ernst:
>
>In Vuescan's Color Preference setup, I see you can specify printer, 
>monitor, scanner, and output color space. I have tried and you can 
>specify qtr gray lab as an output space. So why would Ed have to do 
>anything?
>
>Leslie Otterbein
>
>  
>

Leslie,

You can specify a monitor (output), print (output) and scanner (input) 
profile but not a "new" color space that will be embedded in the file 
you save. The color space choices are in the black box of the Vuescan 
software and new spaces can only be added by Ed. That the qtr gray lab 
shows itself together with the printer profiles in the output profile 
choices isn't relevant, it can't be attached to a saved scan.

Ernst

Ernst:

I stand corrected.

However, since my decision to make a B&W print is usually after it's 
been scanned, I would prefer to keep all my options open til then. To 
paraphrase someone else sometime or other, "Scan Once, Output Many". 
Viola, a new acronym is born ;)

Leslie Otterbein

On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 10:50  AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> You can specify a monitor (output), print (output) and scanner (input)
> profile but not a "new" color space that will be embedded in the file
> you save. The color space choices are in the black box of the Vuescan
> software and new spaces can only be added by Ed. That the qtr gray lab
> shows itself together with the printer profiles in the output profile
> choices isn't relevant, it can't be attached to a saved scan.
>
> Ernst
>
 From the heart of the Kootenays


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is non-responsive to the question but< I think relevant, over all.

Sometimes we get too many changes going in too many items in our workflow.
Though I use and am a strong proponent of Vuescan, I think it is starting
source only.  Unless negs/slides have extreme color shifts, I leave that
alone; likewise with density.  I use it for a reasonably "raw" scan.

If too many adjustments are made in too many places it's hard to know where
to "fix" it.

Just a suggestion.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Leslie Otterbein [mailto:lotterbein@...] 
==
==Ernst:
==
==In Vuescan's Color Preference setup, I see you can specify 
==printer, monitor, scanner, and output color space. I have 
==tried and you can specify qtr gray lab as an output space. So 
==why would Ed have to do anything?

Seth wrote:

>This is non-responsive to the question but< I think relevant, over all.
>
>Sometimes we get too many changes going in too many items in our workflow.
>Though I use and am a strong proponent of Vuescan, I think it is starting
>source only.  Unless negs/slides have extreme color shifts, I leave that
>alone; likewise with density.  I use it for a reasonably "raw" scan.
>
>If too many adjustments are made in too many places it's hard to know where
>to "fix" it.
>
>Just a suggestion.
>
>Seth 
>
>  
>
Seth,

For scanning slides in Vuescan I use custom film profiles made with Wolf 
Faust's slide film targets and save the files with AdobeRGB and 48 bit. 
It saves me time and I rather start from something that is more or less 
calibrated.

Though Ed did add a similar profile calibration for color negative film: 
a Wolf Faust camera target to shoot and then create a profile in Vuescan 
of the negative, I did not use that option as too many factors influence 
the color negative from exposure to scan. Instead I do use the prebaked 
Vuescan color negative estimations and export again with AdobeRGB, I 
find the results acceptable and with 48 bit there's enough to edit 
afterwards.

On B&W I'm in doubt. The Vuescan B&W film choices are too limited. On 
the other hand I like to have a space or gamma attached. It doesn't 
limit me in editing and 16 bit still allows enough changes. I vary the 
exposure settings in Vuescan to get the image I need, don't think 
there's much more in Raw.

Ernst