Digital BW, The Print

Has anyone here made negatives with their epson or hp printers that
would be used to make alternative process prints (platinum, kallitype,
gum bichromate, etc.) ? 
I'm thinking of purchasing an Epson 3000 using MIS inks to make
negatives on overhead transparency film. Any suggestions?

DA

The consumate  source:  Dan Burkholder.  www.danburkholder.com

You can buy his book from the site too:  "Making Digital Negatives for 
Contact Printing."
He has an addendum, a disk that contains a PDF with updated information 
regarding approaches
to be taken with Epson printers.

Peter G.

On Feb 28, 2005, at 11:11 AM, canineconspiracy wrote:

>
>
>
> Has anyone here made negatives with their epson or hp printers that
> would be used to make alternative process prints (platinum, kallitype,
> gum bichromate, etc.) ?
> I'm thinking of purchasing an Epson 3000 using MIS inks to make
> negatives on overhead transparency film. Any suggestions?
>
> DA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
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> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
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"canineconspiracy" wrote:
> Has anyone here made negatives with their epson or hp printers that
> would be used to make alternative process prints (platinum, kallitype,
> gum bichromate, etc.) ? 
> I'm thinking of purchasing an Epson 3000 using MIS inks to make
> negatives on overhead transparency film.

There are two techniques that are popular.

Dan Burkholder was the first photographer to finesse digital negs out of an Epson printer:

http://www.danburkholder.com/

There's a new kid on the block called "Precision Digital Negatives" It's kinda/sorta like 
Burkholder's but from what I've been reading seems "better" and more refined.

http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/

I don't think the Epson 3000 will cut it as the dots are too big. But with "Precision Digital 
Negatives" many users are printing with the Epson 2200.

$38.75 vs $75 also!
Mark

On Feb 28, 2005, at 3:58 PM, John Vitollo wrote:

>
>  "canineconspiracy" wrote:
>  > Has anyone here made negatives with their epson or hp printers that
>  > would be used to make alternative process prints (platinum, 
> kallitype,
>  > gum bichromate, etc.) ?
>  > I'm thinking of purchasing an Epson 3000 using MIS inks to make
>  > negatives on overhead transparency film.
>
>  There are two techniques that are popular.
>
>  Dan Burkholder was the first photographer to finesse digital negs out 
> of an Epson printer:
>
> http://www.danburkholder.com/
>
>  There's a new kid on the block called "Precision Digital Negatives" 
> It's kinda/sorta like
>  Burkholder's but from what I've been reading seems "better" and more 
> refined.
>
> http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/
>
>  I don't think the Epson 3000 will cut it as the dots are too big. But 
> with "Precision Digital
>  Negatives" many users are printing with the Epson 2200.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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On 2/28/05 12:11 PM, "canineconspiracy" sent the following verbage:

> I'm thinking of purchasing an Epson 3000 using MIS inks to make
> negatives on overhead transparency film. Any suggestions?

--

On 2/28/05 2:03 PM, "Mark Savoia" sent the following verbage:

> $38.75 vs $75 also!

--


And it's not in print, just on CD. Dan's book is a great start. Spiral bound
and good points throughout, on top of digital neg's. There are a few
different 'neg' materials that people are using. Don Bryant on this list
probably knows the names. Try the alt-photo-process list.

http://www.usask.ca/lists/alt-photo-process/

Carolyn

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "canineconspiracy" 
<canineconspiracy@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Has anyone here made negatives with their epson or hp printers that
> would be used to make alternative process prints (platinum, 
kallitype,
> gum bichromate, etc.) ? 
> I'm thinking of purchasing an Epson 3000 using MIS inks to make
> negatives on overhead transparency film. Any suggestions?
> 
> DA

Hi DA

I recently went through a two-week stint of making silver gel prints 
from digital negs; here's the approach I used:

My printer for the project was an Epson R300; I originally bought it 
so I can print directly to CDs (I kept having this repeating 
nightmare of a label flying of and ruining a client's CD drive) but 
I discovered that the 3 picoliter droplet size worked well for negs. 
The R200 is the same machine minus the card reader for only $100.00. 
I think this droplet size is the upper limit if you want 'grainless' 
negs, and I don't think the 3000 will get even close. Of course if 
you're going to an alternative process that won't be hurt by some 
extra grit, it might work. The 3000 also has other problems, 
including diminishing support and parts availbility-it is much too 
late in its life-cycle to get into one now.

I started out trying Dan Burkholdter's method, on Pictorico film, 
but am now using a film called Proofline Super Clear. It holds much 
more ink, and will get up to the contrast you need much easier than 
Pictorico. The dye inks work better on this film, pigments won't get 
the contrast I wanted. The film does have one quirk however: if you 
leave it out unprotected for a while, it seems to develop a haze 
that effectively reduces the sharpness of your prints. If you're 
after a soft 'old-timey' look that might be beneficial, but I 
wasn't. Now I make the neg, give it a couple hours to dry, and print 
it right away. 

I am still using Dan's approach of 'colorizing' the image, that is 
applying a curve that makes it very yellow-orange with virtually no 
cyan or black. In the end though, I worked out my own curves, I 
couldn't get the contrast I needed out of those I downloaded from 
Dan's website.

I'm looking for a chance to try this with the R800 and OEM inks, 
anyone with that machine interested? If it works, the R1800 might be 
the best yet for negs, considering the wider format and 1.5 
picoliter droplet size.

Steve Karafyllakis

Thanks for that info John.

I have used the Burkholder method a lot with my imaging classes. We have done first class 
platinum, van dyke brown, cyannotype, and calitype prints on the 2200 and 1280 epsons 
with the OHP transparency film. It is just fine for that but it would be nice if there is 
something even better. I doubt that contact printing on silver with the OHP film would cut 
it though. I"ve always wanted to try contact printing big 20x24 digital negs onto gelatin 
silver. I just miss the toxic chemicals so much. 

He's right about the 3000. I wouldn't even try it. You need as fine of a resolution as you 
can get. It's not surprising that I had more refined resulsts with the 2200. Will look into 
the other film. There is always something to spend money on.

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@c...> wrote:
> 
>  "canineconspiracy" wrote:
> > Has anyone here made negatives with their epson or hp printers that
> > would be used to make alternative process prints (platinum, kallitype,
> > gum bichromate, etc.) ? 
> > I'm thinking of purchasing an Epson 3000 using MIS inks to make
> > negatives on overhead transparency film.
> 
> There are two techniques that are popular.
> 
> Dan Burkholder was the first photographer to finesse digital negs out of an Epson 
printer:

> 
> http://www.danburkholder.com/
> 
> There's a new kid on the block called "Precision Digital Negatives" It's kinda/sorta like 
> Burkholder's but from what I've been reading seems "better" and more refined.
> 
> http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/
> 
> I don't think the Epson 3000 will cut it as the dots are too big. But with "Precision Digital 
> Negatives" many users are printing with the Epson 2200.

Hi, Were you talking about Dan's book?  His book can be ordered on his 
website.  I just replaced one that I had given away this month.  Peter 
G.

>
> And it's not in print, just on CD. Dan's book is a great start. Spiral 
> bound
> and good points throughout, on top of digital neg's. There are a few
> different 'neg' materials that people are using. Don Bryant on this 
> list
> probably knows the names. Try the alt-photo-process list.
>
> http://www.usask.ca/lists/alt-photo-process/
>
> Carolyn
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ 
> AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sorry, no, the thread compared Dan's to a new one that is out, at a higher
investment, and I just related that it is not even a book you can hold. I
have Dan's first version. (printed and I thought a very reasonable price). I
was recommending it as a good start.

Carolyn

On 2/28/05 4:54 PM, "Peter Gorwin" sent the following verbage:

> Hi, Were you talking about Dan's book?  His book can be ordered on his
> website.  I just replaced one that I had given away this month.  Peter
> G.

>> 
>> And it's not in print, just on CD. Dan's book is a great start. Spiral
>> bound

Dan recommends PGHG film for silver, another Pictorico product

http://www.pictorico.com/category/5-PGHG-White-Film.htm

Peter G.

On Feb 28, 2005, at 3:28 PM, john dean wrote:
>
>
> I doubt that contact printing on silver with the OHP film would cut
> it though. I"ve always wanted to try contact printing big 20x24 
> digital negs onto gelatin
> silver. I just miss the toxic chemicals so much.
>

Carolyn Frayn <carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Sorry, no, the thread compared Dan's to a new one that is out, at a higher
> investment, and I just related that it is not even a book you can hold. 

Not sure what the problem with not being able to hold it in your hands or the price of 
$40.00 more? If that's all you are basing the system on then you are losing out on 
probably a better system that can print on silver paper too. 

I invited Mark Nelson the creator of "Precision Digital Negatives" to this thread so he can 
explain a little bit more about his system. Hopefully my email doesn't get spammed 
blocked.

http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/ 

I have no affiliation with the above...just been seeing and reading a lot of great stuff about 
it!

On 2/28/05 5:33 PM, "John Vitollo" sent the following verbage:

> 
> 
> Carolyn Frayn <carolyn@u...> wrote:
>> Sorry, no, the thread compared Dan's to a new one that is out, at a higher
>> investment, and I just related that it is not even a book you can hold.
> 
> Not sure what the problem with not being able to hold it in your hands or the
> price of 
> $40.00 more? If that's all you are basing the system on then you are losing
> out on 
> probably a better system that can print on silver paper too.

That's not all, and I have no problem with the price if it's worth it,
except as a starting point, I was simply making a recommendation, as you
were. I tinker myself thanks. I do have a problem not holding it in my hand
thank you, it's difficult for me to read and absorb a great deal from a
book, when it's displayed on my monitor. I'm on it enough as it is... And
prefer to sit quietly with a book in hand. A matter of choice is all... As
an aside, I don't print to silver paper personally. Choices.. Ain't they
grand.

Carolyn

> > probably knows the names. Try the alt-photo-process list.
> >
> > http://www.usask.ca/lists/alt-photo-process/
> >
> > Carolyn


Thank you, I'll check this out.

DA

> >
> >
> >
> >
>

> 
> You can buy his book from the site too:  "Making Digital 
Negatives for 
> Contact Printing."
> He has an addendum, a disk that contains a PDF with updated 
information 
> regarding approaches
> to be taken with Epson printers.
> 
> Peter G.
> 
>Sounds like Dan B. is the authority.

Thanks, DA

I'll check it out.

DA

Carolyn Frayn <carolyn@u...> 
> I do have a problem not holding it in my hand
> thank you, it's difficult for me to read and absorb a great deal from a
> book, when it's displayed on my monitor. I'm on it enough as it is... And
> prefer to sit quietly with a book in hand. A matter of choice is all... As
> an aside, I don't print to silver paper personally.

I hear ya! I've accepted I'll never see another software manual on paper again. Books are 
light and don't take batteries!

> Choices.. Ain't they grand.

Between inks, paper and Nikon and Canon...I'm tired of it.

We are really lucky though with all the choices!

Mark Nelson the developer of PDN - Precision Digital Negatives - sent me an email 
describing in a little more detail about his process. He has given me permission to post it 
to this list.

Once again I have no affiliation with him - I'm just curious!



Hi John,

Thanks for pointing out the discussion.  There have been a number of places such as this, 
APUG and Alt Photo list where the issue of Dan's Book vs. my eBook have been debated.  I 
tend to stay out of these "debates", because I don't feel it is that helpful. 

Here are some comments to you though.

True, my book is an eBook not a "real book".  It is a 138 page PDF that is rather easy to 
print out.  I chose to do it this way because I published the book myself and it also 
includes calibration palette files and the Curve Calculator software that are necessary for 
using the system.  It took me two years, working full time, to do the research and write 
this little eBook.

Yes, the price is higher than other books, but I just noticed a new soft cover "how to" book 
that is running about $50.  Also, consider the BTZS system cost. I would suspect that 
someone using the Precision Digital Negatives system will recover the price of the book 
very very quickly because of the accuracy of the results and less wasted time and materials 
trying to "fiddle" with curves to get them work.  This is a system. It is a system based on 
how digital negatives really work and it provides you with a means of crafting a digital 
negative that will give superior results for your alternative process and your workflow.  
About 3 bad Platinum/Palladium prints will pay for the difference.

Precision Digital Negatives for Silver and Other Alternative Photographic Processes 
introduces a whole new concept into the art and craft of digital negatives—Color Density 
Range Control.  This is a method of matching the density range of the digital negative 
exactly to the exposure scale of the alternative process—before the adjustment curve is 
even applied.  Because of this, a much more subtle, less destructive curve is required.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.  The people who have used the system swear by 
it—including Dick Arentz, for one.  As Dick has said to me—"not all people are going to 
care enough to use your system.  They just want to make prints, so they will take the easy 
route."  I think this is somewhat true, but I also think that like many things in life, if you do 
a little work up front, you save yourself a LOT of work and spoiled prints later.  We are all 
concerned about wasting time and money for materials—probably time more than 
anything.

I recently had a student fly in from California for a 3 day workshop.  We covered how to 
scan his negatives and how to prepare his image files as is described in the book.  Then 
we calibrated his two papers of choice for a Platinum/Palladium mix he wanted to use (this 
took 3 small PT/PD prints for each paper). The last day, we printed the 4 different image/
negatives we had made—two for each paper.  When he developed the first print, his eyes 
got big and he smiled and said "This is beautiful!".  Each print was perfect without any test 
strips or test prints.

After I have calibrated a paper and a PT/PD contrast mix with the PDN system, I just make 
prints—without needing to make test prints or test strips.

Best wishes & hope you try the PDN system one of these days.
Mark Nelson

Purchase the eBook & System for Your Own Custom Workflow@
Precision Digital Negatives

PDN's Own 31-Step Tablet Now Available—produced by Stouffer Industries
Credit Card & Paypal now accepted

www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com
Workshop info on Home Page

I have been quite succesful using Dan's technique to make negatives for the
silver gelatine process using the Pictorio High Gloss White Film that he
recommends for the 2200. Using the step wedge to get the exposure correct is
very impotant. Make sure the 100% step is as black as the paper will print.
Exposure times are long - 2 minutes or so with the enlarger I used.

The real question is if the whole silver gelatine process is worth it. I'm
using QTR and I like the prints a lot, but wish the black was a little
better. I'm waiting for the recent discussions about GLOP on RC papers to
settle down to a solid conclusion and process.

Steve Bye