Digital BW, The Print

It seems as though there are finally some options for the performance
Hahnemühle papers have been providing for B&W printing. I did some
quick linearizations and test prints on Inovva Photo Smooth Cotton,
Inovva Soft Texture Art, and another soon to be out labeled Inovva
Rough Texture 315gsm, apparently to be called Cold Press 315 gsm.
These are all coated 100% cotton (not sure if the rough is cotton)
papers in the same family as other coated fine art papers like
Hahnemühle, Somerset, and Hawk Mountain.
What suprised me was that with Cone quad inks, the dmax for all were
hovering right around in the same area as all the Hahnemühle papers we
use. Within 0.01 or so plus or minus. Actually the highest was Soft
texture, 0.002 higher than PhotoRag, these differences are hardly
worth mentioning. Also interesting is that as they reached dmax they
were not leveling off, as other papers including Hahnemühle seem to
do. This suggests that the coatings take ink very well, and higher
dmax might be possible with different inks or larger dot size.
Photo Smooth Cotton would be the contender for a PhotoRag look, being
the smoothest and whitest. Soft Texture Art and Cold Press 315 gsm are
slightly less bright probably indicating less OBAs. The textures of
these papers might be compared to German Etching and William Turner,
but less coarse, as though the texture has been knocked down, more
rolling and less granular. Very attractive. Initial test prints looked
good, until I do more testing with different hues etc. it'll be hard
to tell if there is a parting of the ways between these and the
Hahnemühle papers in terms of image feel.
I'm anxious to try some color on this stuff as well.
That's all I have for now, but it's encouraging enough to report so
those interested can begin testing for themselves. I'm also lead to
believe pricing may be more palatable.
As usual I would highly recommend Jim at shadesofpaper.com as a
supplier, thanks Jim for the samples and the opportunity to test.
Actually, just thanks for everything.

Options like this are good, we need more of them.
Tyler

Thanks for the heads up Tyler.

I just ordered the sampler pack from them.

Jules



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> 
> It seems as though there are finally some options for the 
performance
> Hahnemühle papers have been providing for B&W printing. I did some
> quick linearizations and test prints on Inovva Photo Smooth Cotton,
> Inovva Soft Texture Art, and another soon to be out labeled Inovva
> Rough Texture 315gsm, apparently to be called Cold Press 315 gsm.
> These are all coated 100% cotton (not sure if the rough is cotton)
> papers in the same family as other coated fine art papers like
> Hahnemühle, Somerset, and Hawk Mountain.
> What suprised me was that with Cone quad inks, the dmax for all were
> hovering right around in the same area as all the Hahnemühle papers 
we
> use. Within 0.01 or so plus or minus. Actually the highest was Soft
> texture, 0.002 higher than PhotoRag, these differences are hardly
> worth mentioning. Also interesting is that as they reached dmax they
> were not leveling off, as other papers including Hahnemühle seem to
> do. This suggests that the coatings take ink very well, and higher
> dmax might be possible with different inks or larger dot size.
> Photo Smooth Cotton would be the contender for a PhotoRag look, 
being
> the smoothest and whitest. Soft Texture Art and Cold Press 315 gsm 
are
> slightly less bright probably indicating less OBAs. The textures of
> these papers might be compared to German Etching and William Turner,
> but less coarse, as though the texture has been knocked down, more
> rolling and less granular. Very attractive. Initial test prints 
looked

> good, until I do more testing with different hues etc. it'll be hard
> to tell if there is a parting of the ways between these and the
> Hahnemühle papers in terms of image feel.
> I'm anxious to try some color on this stuff as well.
> That's all I have for now, but it's encouraging enough to report so
> those interested can begin testing for themselves. I'm also lead to
> believe pricing may be more palatable.
> As usual I would highly recommend Jim at shadesofpaper.com as a
> supplier, thanks Jim for the samples and the opportunity to test.
> Actually, just thanks for everything.
> 
> Options like this are good, we need more of them.
> Tyler

I agree.  The Innova curves for UT2 and UT7 are posted.  All the Innova
papers I tested could use the same basic curves, although tones will vary
depending on the paper.  So, there is one set of Innova curves, and they are
good for all the Innova papers as best I could tell.  Good stuff.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...]
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:12 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Inovva papers
> 
> 
> 
> It seems as though there are finally some options for the performance
> Hahnemühle papers have been providing for B&W printing. ...

Absolutely, thanks Tyler.Your are reading our minds.

I want to see the roughter texture rag with less tenderness than William Turner.

Tyler Boley wrote:

>It seems as though there are finally some options for the performance
>Hahnem\ufffdhle papers have been providing for B&W printing. 
>
Collected some quotes of messages on the Innova range since I tested 
them after the Photokina last year.

I've printed sheets of several Innova papers and I have to say
that the coating is at the Hahnemuhle level in sharpness and

saturation if not better. Will test the density when the prints 
are drier. Used the same profile that I use for HM and the 
MIS7600 inks in the 10000CF. Epson driver. Almost equal in color. 
I don't believe the papers are rebranded, the substrate is 
different. Given the roll sizes this is an interesting paper.  I 
believe that it still is a bit above the price we pay for 
Hahnemuhle but they come close enough. The coating may be as 
delicate as HM's in handling, have to check that further.

Googling on Innova's papers I came across the following page:

http://www.digitaloutput.net/dq/dq0917.html

At the bottom there's a reference for Innova USA with Wayne 
Connelly also mentioned. If I remember it correctly he worked for 
Hahnemuhle USA (Dia-Nielsen) 3-4 years ago. I have talked with 
him on the HM stand then.  I see at another page that Mark 
Messina also a former HM man is the head of Innova Editions. 
Wonder whether they took the crown jewels with them when they 
left HM.


Ernst



Jim Doyle wrote:


>> Innova papers are specifically formulated to have excellent color gamut and
>> density. The process of making the paper is more efficient and therefore the
>> papers cost much less than Arches or Hahnemuhle. Same performance at a lower
>> cost.. Here In The States The Rolls are 11 Ft longer Than Hahnemuhle..
>  
>
The roll length difference will be the same here as I understand it. And 
they print excellent. I see small reflecting speckles on the surface 
that I haven't seen on the HM coating. As if there are micro size mica 
or glass particles in the coating. Reflection at 45 degrees 
approximately, best seen on the Fibaprint quality as it is the smoothest.

>> The 2 owners of Innova were instrumental in the success of Hahnemuhle and
>> they are now out on their own..As Innova Fine Art.. www.innovart.com
>  
>
If they can keep up the quality with increasing demand then I see a rosy 
future for them. They deserve it IMHO, first time I see a real 
competitive art paper to HM. Ernst

"I have measured the D max of the Innova papers and I get a 
> slightly lower Dmax than what I can get with Photo Rag for the 
> papers. Same "color" profile and the Epson driver, 720 dpi, 
> 10000CF with MIS7600 inks. Epson Semigloss paper setting. Photo 
> Rag 1.54/1.55 D and the Innova papers ranging from 1.51 to 1.53 D.
> 
> However the Innova paper shows it could have a higher load of ink 
> as there's no bleeding in the details where PR shows some 
> bleeding. The Semigloss setting is quite good for PR + an RGB 
> custom profile but I guess that Innova could use another paper 
> setting in the Epson driver that gives more ink. The 10000CF 
> driver does have some extra choices and I have a RIP that can 
> change the inklimit. What I'm curious about is which (Epson 
> driver) paper setting Innova recommends for the Ultrachrome 
> printers. A nice high gloss Innova brochure with all the details 
> to start your art printing business but nothing that may help you 
> with making your own RGB profiles :-)
> 
> The samples book has a bluish B&W print on its first page 
> (Fibaprint), the black measured there is 1.66 D. It is printed 
> with a colour printer as there are yellow and blue dots in the 
> highlights.  I presume an Ultrachrome print as a dye print could 
> easily go above 1.66 D.  I guess that's about the highest Dmax 
> you can get with Ultrachrome and the Epson driver, more (pigment) 
> ink doesn't improve the density either at that level. It shows 
> however that another paper setting could be used.
> 
> I can get 1.67 D on Photo Rag with the MIS Ultratone Quad inks 
> but that requires the RIP with an Epson 9000. The paper settings 
> are more limited with the Eposn 9000 driver."
> 
> The Innova sample was printed on a 2200 as I understand it now, 
> could still be with a RIP but nevertheless I think the papers are 
> equal to HM in Dmax too. So far I do not have the feeling that 
> the lower price means a quality compromise.
> 
> Ernst

Stephen:

Recently received samples of Proof Line and Innova papers.  After
profiling and running test prints, this is what I've found. YMMV and I
encourage you to do your own test as I have different criteria for my
judgments than you will.

Since I print my own work and that of others, I typically look for
high detail, good color and blacks (as neutral as possible) and ease
of use.

I have not based any judgments on price as I feel that is a secondary
concern to results.

I found the Proof Line photo Gloss and  Photo Luster to be very good.
 They printed smoother and with higher apparent depth than the Epson
Premium glossy papers.  I've never been a fan of Epson's glossy paper
line anyway as the RC base has out gassing problems. These Proofline
papers are RC based as well, but look good, and are subject to
outgassing as well.

However, here's the rub. On the sample sheets I received, the Photo
Luster is very white base and very bright.  The Photo gloss is
noticeably darker, with a warmish, slightly yellow cast.  The Photo
Semi-Matte is a little different from the Luster and Photo Gloss.

That might be a problem for some as I look for a consistent color in
the paper bases within a similar product line.  If the choice is
between Photo Gloss and Photo Luster papers in a product line, I want
the visible difference to be only in the finish, not in the entire
image from changes in base color.

Having said that, they are good papers.

If I was looking for an Epson replacement, the glossy and Luster gave
me good results and I would have no problem in using them.

The fine-art paper (310gsm) printed well enough. A little too textured
for me (remember, I'm printing photographic detail), but should be
fine for other output.  This is about as light a fine-art paper as I
would use.  

Being used to Arches 355 gsm, most everything seems light. Yet some
papers (while both claim to be the same weight) just feels more solid
and substantial in the hand.

Still working on the Innova tests, but I've had a problem with the 280
gsm Ultra Smooth FibaPrint.

I take printing papers out of their protective wrap and acclimate them
to the temperature (72-75) and relative humidity (55-65%)in my
printing room and workrooms.

The 280 gsm paper was out only a couple of hours before printing the
profile sheets.  Printed OK, but two days later the sheets had really
curled, and the remaining sheet I was going to use for my standard
test print was so curled as to cause a head strike.  The other Innova
papers (315 Smooth and
315 soft texure) did not curl.  I'm not a paper scientist, but it
seems this paper really absorbed some moisture from the air.

I hope I'm incorrect as a paper that sensitive to air moisture has the
potential for problems throughout the whole process-from printing
through framing.

I welcome any suggestions as to what else might be causing the curl as
I do not wish to label a paper as faulty on my test alone.

I'll do test prints on the Innova Photo Smooth and Soft Texture papers
when I get time and let you know the results.

Regards,

Stephen

www.stephengreenfield


End of quotes.

So far I have not used much of the Innova range as there are still a lot of HM rolls here and we get the last at a very competitive price. Customers are also a bit conservative, asking for the same paper again. The Innova papers are also a bit more carton like in their stiffness, HM is more flexible. The German Etching texture falls in between the two Innova textured paper qualities, if I had to replace the German Etching I would take the rougher one.

Ernst








------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->

I also have tried the Smooth Cotton but visually it appeared the D-Max 
was very slightly less. Did not do any scientific test, just eyeballs. 
50 foot rolls, not 39 feet also - good price point. Tyler, did you do 
any "yellowing if left on top of a stack of newspapers" test? :)
Ditto on Jimmy D!
Mark

On Mar 10, 2005, at 11:12 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

>
>  It seems as though there are finally some options for the performance
>  Hahnem�hle papers have been providing for B&W printing. I did some
>  quick linearizations and test prints on Inovva Photo Smooth Cotton,
>  Inovva Soft Texture Art, and another soon to be out labeled Inovva
>  Rough Texture 315gsm, apparently to be called Cold Press 315 gsm.
>  These are all coated 100% cotton (not sure if the rough is cotton)
>  papers in the same family as other coated fine art papers like
>  Hahnem�hle, Somerset, and Hawk Mountain.
>  What suprised me was that with Cone quad inks, the dmax for all were
>  hovering right around in the same area as all the Hahnem�hle papers we
>  use. Within 0.01 or so plus or minus. Actually the highest was Soft
>  texture, 0.002 higher than PhotoRag, these differences are hardly
>  worth mentioning. Also interesting is that as they reached dmax they
>  were not leveling off, as other papers including Hahnem�hle seem to
>  do. This suggests that the coatings take ink very well, and higher
>  dmax might be possible with different inks or larger dot size.
>  Photo Smooth Cotton would be the contender for a PhotoRag look, being
>  the smoothest and whitest. Soft Texture Art and Cold Press 315 gsm are
>  slightly less bright probably indicating less OBAs. The textures of
>  these papers might be compared to German Etching and William Turner,
>  but less coarse, as though the texture has been knocked down, more
>  rolling and less granular. Very attractive. Initial test prints looked
>  good, until I do more testing with different hues etc. it'll be hard
>  to tell if there is a parting of the ways between these and the
>  Hahnem�hle papers in terms of image feel.
>  I'm anxious to try some color on this stuff as well.
>  That's all I have for now, but it's encouraging enough to report so
>  those interested can begin testing for themselves. I'm also lead to
>  believe pricing may be more palatable.
>  As usual I would highly recommend Jim at shadesofpaper.com as a
>  supplier, thanks Jim for the samples and the opportunity to test.
>  Actually, just thanks for everything.
>
>  Options like this are good, we need more of them.
>  Tyler
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

They sure did!
Mark

On Mar 11, 2005, at 4:19 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

>  Wonder whether they took the crown jewels with them when they
>  left HM.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ernst & Gang,

Yes Wayne and mark are both ex hahnemuhle guys..

Jim Doyle

J. Doyle Enterprises LLC.
114 Old Orchard Rd.
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
www.shadesofpaper.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Ernst Dinkla [mailto:E.Dinkla@...]
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:19 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Innova papers

Tyler Boley wrote:

>It seems as though there are finally some options for the performance
>Hahnemühle papers have been providing for B&W printing.
>
Collected some quotes of messages on the Innova range since I tested
them after the Photokina last year.

I've printed sheets of several Innova papers and I have to say
that the coating is at the Hahnemuhle level in sharpness and

saturation if not better. Will test the density when the prints
are drier. Used the same profile that I use for HM and the
MIS7600 inks in the 10000CF. Epson driver. Almost equal in color.
I don't believe the papers are rebranded, the substrate is
different. Given the roll sizes this is an interesting paper.  I
believe that it still is a bit above the price we pay for
Hahnemuhle but they come close enough. The coating may be as
delicate as HM's in handling, have to check that further.

Googling on Innova's papers I came across the following page:

http://www.digitaloutput.net/dq/dq0917.html

At the bottom there's a reference for Innova USA with Wayne
Connelly also mentioned. If I remember it correctly he worked for
Hahnemuhle USA (Dia-Nielsen) 3-4 years ago. I have talked with
him on the HM stand then.  I see at another page that Mark
Messina also a former HM man is the head of Innova Editions.
Wonder whether they took the crown jewels with them when they
left HM.


Ernst



Jim Doyle wrote:


>> Innova papers are specifically formulated to have excellent color gamut
and
>> density. The process of making the paper is more efficient and therefore
the
>> papers cost much less than Arches or Hahnemuhle. Same performance at a
lower
>> cost.. Here In The States The Rolls are 11 Ft longer Than Hahnemuhle..
>
>
The roll length difference will be the same here as I understand it. And
they print excellent. I see small reflecting speckles on the surface
that I haven't seen on the HM coating. As if there are micro size mica
or glass particles in the coating. Reflection at 45 degrees
approximately, best seen on the Fibaprint quality as it is the smoothest.

>> The 2 owners of Innova were instrumental in the success of Hahnemuhle and
>> they are now out on their own..As Innova Fine Art.. www.innovart.com
>
>
If they can keep up the quality with increasing demand then I see a rosy
future for them. They deserve it IMHO, first time I see a real
competitive art paper to HM. Ernst

"I have measured the D max of the Innova papers and I get a
> slightly lower Dmax than what I can get with Photo Rag for the
> papers. Same "color" profile and the Epson driver, 720 dpi,
> 10000CF with MIS7600 inks. Epson Semigloss paper setting. Photo
> Rag 1.54/1.55 D and the Innova papers ranging from 1.51 to 1.53 D.
>
> However the Innova paper shows it could have a higher load of ink
> as there's no bleeding in the details where PR shows some
> bleeding. The Semigloss setting is quite good for PR + an RGB
> custom profile but I guess that Innova could use another paper
> setting in the Epson driver that gives more ink. The 10000CF
> driver does have some extra choices and I have a RIP that can
> change the inklimit. What I'm curious about is which (Epson
> driver) paper setting Innova recommends for the Ultrachrome
> printers. A nice high gloss Innova brochure with all the details
> to start your art printing business but nothing that may help you
> with making your own RGB profiles :-)
>
> The samples book has a bluish B&W print on its first page
> (Fibaprint), the black measured there is 1.66 D. It is printed
> with a colour printer as there are yellow and blue dots in the
> highlights.  I presume an Ultrachrome print as a dye print could
> easily go above 1.66 D.  I guess that's about the highest Dmax
> you can get with Ultrachrome and the Epson driver, more (pigment)
> ink doesn't improve the density either at that level. It shows
> however that another paper setting could be used.
>
> I can get 1.67 D on Photo Rag with the MIS Ultratone Quad inks
> but that requires the RIP with an Epson 9000. The paper settings
> are more limited with the Eposn 9000 driver."
>
> The Innova sample was printed on a 2200 as I understand it now,
> could still be with a RIP but nevertheless I think the papers are
> equal to HM in Dmax too. So far I do not have the feeling that
> the lower price means a quality compromise.
>
> Ernst

Stephen:

Recently received samples of Proof Line and Innova papers.  After
profiling and running test prints, this is what I've found. YMMV and I
encourage you to do your own test as I have different criteria for my
judgments than you will.

Since I print my own work and that of others, I typically look for
high detail, good color and blacks (as neutral as possible) and ease
of use.

I have not based any judgments on price as I feel that is a secondary
concern to results.

I found the Proof Line photo Gloss and  Photo Luster to be very good.
They printed smoother and with higher apparent depth than the Epson
Premium glossy papers.  I've never been a fan of Epson's glossy paper
line anyway as the RC base has out gassing problems. These Proofline
papers are RC based as well, but look good, and are subject to
outgassing as well.

However, here's the rub. On the sample sheets I received, the Photo
Luster is very white base and very bright.  The Photo gloss is
noticeably darker, with a warmish, slightly yellow cast.  The Photo
Semi-Matte is a little different from the Luster and Photo Gloss.

That might be a problem for some as I look for a consistent color in
the paper bases within a similar product line.  If the choice is
between Photo Gloss and Photo Luster papers in a product line, I want
the visible difference to be only in the finish, not in the entire
image from changes in base color.

Having said that, they are good papers.

If I was looking for an Epson replacement, the glossy and Luster gave
me good results and I would have no problem in using them.

The fine-art paper (310gsm) printed well enough. A little too textured
for me (remember, I'm printing photographic detail), but should be
fine for other output.  This is about as light a fine-art paper as I
would use.

Being used to Arches 355 gsm, most everything seems light. Yet some
papers (while both claim to be the same weight) just feels more solid
and substantial in the hand.

Still working on the Innova tests, but I've had a problem with the 280
gsm Ultra Smooth FibaPrint.

I take printing papers out of their protective wrap and acclimate them
to the temperature (72-75) and relative humidity (55-65%)in my
printing room and workrooms.

The 280 gsm paper was out only a couple of hours before printing the
profile sheets.  Printed OK, but two days later the sheets had really
curled, and the remaining sheet I was going to use for my standard
test print was so curled as to cause a head strike.  The other Innova
papers (315 Smooth and
315 soft texure) did not curl.  I'm not a paper scientist, but it
seems this paper really absorbed some moisture from the air.

I hope I'm incorrect as a paper that sensitive to air moisture has the
potential for problems throughout the whole process-from printing
through framing.

I welcome any suggestions as to what else might be causing the curl as
I do not wish to label a paper as faulty on my test alone.

I'll do test prints on the Innova Photo Smooth and Soft Texture papers
when I get time and let you know the results.

Regards,

Stephen

www.stephengreenfield


End of quotes.

So far I have not used much of the Innova range as there are still a lot of
HM rolls here and we get the last at a very competitive price. Customers are
also a bit conservative, asking for the same paper again. The Innova papers
are also a bit more carton like in their stiffness, HM is more flexible. The
German Etching texture falls in between the two Innova textured paper
qualities, if I had to replace the German Etching I would take the rougher
one.

Ernst








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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
> I also have tried the Smooth Cotton but visually it appeared the D-Max 
> was very slightly less. Did not do any scientific test, just eyeballs. 

I saw another report of lower dmax. I suspect ink choice and
driver/RIP settings will give different results.

> 50 foot rolls, not 39 feet also - good price point. Tyler, did you do 
> any "yellowing if left on top of a stack of newspapers" test?

Not yet, really need to just use and live with these papers for a bit.
After all this numbers crap, that's where we really learn about them.
My suspicion is that coating yellowing from certain chemicals, and
flaking, are going to be with us for a while.
Maybe a user knowledge base will begin to accumulate, the stuff
deserves a shot. Ernst's info very useful too, his earlier testing
sparked my interest, as well as info from Jimmy.

Tyler
www.custom-digital.com

Hi there,
I just got some rolls and sheets of Innova media and I have to say I m very pleased with them. I use EP7600 UC with both MK and PK, EP7000 with Piezotones on the way, but ran the media on a EP9000 with same inks at a customers facility. Amazing results... I use both CS(Mac) and RiP(PC), Ergosofts Studioprint. Art and photography, color and b/w images, all the work comes out good. I have not yet printed the Cold Press, Matte Poster board dual sided or the 450gsm Photo Smooth media. 
The d-max has not been an issue, I have all the tones I want in the MK option, especially in the greyscale b/w outputs. Even the PK performs very well on the FibaPrint media for example, better with SP then CS. 
I compare with other fine media such as, HM, Brightcube Satine 300gsm, Moab, Arches, Hawk Mtn's Condor BriteWhite and Crane. 
 
Anders
 

Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
> I also have tried the Smooth Cotton but visually it appeared the D-Max 
> was very slightly less. Did not do any scientific test, just eyeballs. 

I saw another report of lower dmax. I suspect ink choice and
driver/RIP settings will give different results.

> 50 foot rolls, not 39 feet also - good price point. Tyler, did you do 
> any "yellowing if left on top of a stack of newspapers" test?

Not yet, really need to just use and live with these papers for a bit.
After all this numbers crap, that's where we really learn about them.
My suspicion is that coating yellowing from certain chemicals, and
flaking, are going to be with us for a while.
Maybe a user knowledge base will begin to accumulate, the stuff
deserves a shot. Ernst's info very useful too, his earlier testing
sparked my interest, as well as info from Jimmy.

Tyler
www.custom-digital.com





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With MIS Eboni and the Epson driver in desktop printers I'm getting a dmax
for Innova papers that is between EEM and Photo Rag.  The dmax has varied a
bit from batch to batch.

I don't have any objective ways to test the toughness of the surface, but my
experience in handling the papers is that the Innova papers have a more
durable coating.

In general, I'm not seeing any significant flaking with the papers.  The
main defects I'm seeing in the papers is occasional random reflective points
(aluminum flakes?) and darker beige spots.  These are all very small, but I
occasionally will not use a piece of paper due to them. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...]
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 7:45 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Inovva papers
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
> <mark@c...> wrote:
> > I also have tried the Smooth Cotton but visually it appeared the D-Max
> > was very slightly less. Did not do any scientific test, just eyeballs.
> 
> I saw another report of lower dmax. I suspect ink choice and
> driver/RIP settings will give different results.
...

For what it¹s worth, I built profiles for the Smooth Cotton (11Color & Quad
K) on my ColorSpan printer, which is about 1900 swatches, and the profile
looks identical to PhotoRag.  Will need to check it further in actual
printing.  J Vee

On 3/11/05 9:44 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
> <mark@c...> wrote:
>> > I also have tried the Smooth Cotton but visually it appeared the D-Max
>> > was very slightly less. Did not do any scientific test, just eyeballs.
> 
> I saw another report of lower dmax. I suspect ink choice and
> driver/RIP settings will give different results.
> 
>> > 50 foot rolls, not 39 feet also - good price point. Tyler, did you do
>> > any "yellowing if left on top of a stack of newspapers" test?
> 
> Not yet, really need to just use and live with these papers for a bit.
> After all this numbers crap, that's where we really learn about them.
> My suspicion is that coating yellowing from certain chemicals, and
> flaking, are going to be with us for a while.
> Maybe a user knowledge base will begin to accumulate, the stuff
> deserves a shot. Ernst's info very useful too, his earlier testing
> sparked my interest, as well as info from Jimmy.
> 
> Tyler
> www.custom-digital.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
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> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
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> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry all, can't spell, can't type, can't see.
Tyler

Tyler Boley wrote:

>Sorry all, can't spell, can't type, can't see.
>Tyler
>
>  
>

Doesn't matter Tyler, maybe soon you don't have to worry about how you 
have to spell Hahnemuhle either:

http://www.schleicher-schuell.com/icm11be.nsf/(html)/Startseite

The mother company of HM (DE) is taken over by Whatman (UK-USA). The 
last used to be a paper mill that also produced aquarel, drawing papers 
like Hahnemuhle but is now like Schleicher and Schuell mainly busy in 
sieves, chromospectrografie, biotechnology etc. HM will be split off to 
become independent. Looks like a good prey for other companies. Let us 
hope it isn't Epson or alike.

Wonder whether the Innova men knew this was going to happen.

It is interesting to see that there are more relations between the 
biotech industry and the inkjet print industry. Like with piezo heads 
there are also paper-cellulose substrates used in micro array probes for 
fast analysing technics. It wouldn't surprise me when there has been 
some cross semination between inkjet coating development and what is 
needed in the arrays.

Ernst

At 14:45 +0100 14.3.2005, Ernst Dinkla wrote:
*******************************************

> HM will be split off to
>become independent.

HM IS independent now.

>Wonder whether the Innova men knew this was going to happen.

Very well, the people behind the Inova are former HM employes.

> It wouldn't surprise me when there has been
>some cross semination between inkjet coating development and what is
>needed in the arrays.

As with microparticule technology used from 70th for analytical and 
preparative chemistry - after used in cosmetics and medicine - at 
least in UltraChrome inks :)

Martin
--

Martin Sluka wrote:

>>Wonder whether the Innova men knew this was going to happen.
>>    
>>
>
>Very well, the people behind the Inova are former HM employes.
>
>  
>

I know they are, but they left HM in 2003 to get their act together in 
the summer of 2004. The announcement of the S&S takeover was late 2004. 
Innova was then already on the Photokina.



Ernst