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Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Diane Fields

I've read over and over for the last several months on one 'pro' forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end of 2005.  Mine is not quite at the end of its very good life but it will probably be time to replace it in 2006.  I've been wondering just what I will do since I will have to choose an LCD, want a very good quality monitor but probably not the 'best' which is what they (pro forum) were recommending (because of price).  I calibrate of course---but am wondering from those that have switched from CRT to LCD what you are finding as to being able to calibrate to your standards (I tend to find this group has 'high' standards for the most part).  

Diane
-----------
Diane B. Fields
picnic@...
photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: tariqgibranstudio 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:39 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Correcting exposure for Gray Gamma 1.8



  Your remark about monitors having their own "sweet spot" is the key I
  think.  I have been back and forth with this issue and various
  displays over the years.  Recently, I added a fairly high end NEC
  2080UX LCD screen(the first LCD screen which was actually better than
  the CRT Mitsubishi Diamontron and Lacies I had previously used!). 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Mark Savoia

Not the most reliable source on this statement (which pro forum?). I 
still find CRTs to be much more accurate then LCDs, but I think it is 
getting much better. I sure hope CRTs are around for a long time, I 
just love their girth, weight, energy consumption, and heat. :)

Mark

On Mar 18, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Diane Fields wrote:

> on one 'pro' forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end 
> of 2005.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Djon

...many have found various inexpensive Samsung Synchmasters
satisfactory. I do fwiw...I have a 192n from Office Depot.. Size is
critical and LCDs are far more effective than much larger CRTs for
detail viewing (compare any good laptop with a much bigger CRT).

LCDs are generically far more stable than CRTs, they don't emit
significant heat. CRTs are electric heaters, same as old TV sets. LCDs
 don't have "sweet spots" because they don't have to overcome CRT's
antique projection system concept (the little knob at the back of the
CRT projects on the big screen).


> I calibrate of course---but am wondering from those that have
switched from CRT to LCD what you are finding as to being able to
calibrate to your standards (I tend to find this group has 'high'
standards for the most part).  
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Mark Savoia

Your kidding, right? What sizes are you referring to? A 19" LCD vs a 
19" CRT would be a hands down win for the CRT on detail. Zoom in!
Mark

On Mar 18, 2005, at 11:26 AM, Djon wrote:

> and LCDs are far more effective than much larger CRTs for
>  detail viewing (compare any good laptop with a much bigger CRT).
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Diane Fields

Sorry, should have given my source---Rob Galbraith's forum/color management
http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB3
.  There are many well known and knowledgable PS power users there in the color Management  forum and this has come up a number of times.  Andrew Rodney was one that I remember.

  I haven't used any LCDs other than my laptop (which is hardly a good comparison LOL) altho' we bought my husband a medium priced one and it is 'decent'.  I calibrated it but haven't actually used it myself.  My CRTs have calibrated very successfully and I, too, will give them up reluctantly unless I can find one that is as good in a price range I can afford.  What I see a number doing is buying the Sony Artisan CRT while they still can--but I'm not ready to buy a monitor yet.

Diane
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Savoia 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?


  Not the most reliable source on this statement (which pro forum?). I 
  still find CRTs to be much more accurate then LCDs, but I think it is 
  getting much better. I sure hope CRTs are around for a long time, I 
  just love their girth, weight, energy consumption, and heat. :)

  Mark

  On Mar 18, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Diane Fields wrote:

  > on one 'pro' forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end 
  > of 2005.

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by johnglodge

It is always amusing to watch the kind if discussion that LCD/CRT 
causes.

For a useful appraisal see www.displaymate.com

Basically on a LCD the greyscale is not as linear as it is with a 
CRT. Not that a CRT is actually linear but it is a lot smoother and 
more easily profiled.

Recently (well it started a few years ago with Sharp and Eizo and a 
few others) manufacturers started putting 10bit DAC's in their 
LCD's. That is the actual signal going to the LCD pixel is an analog 
signal and in these cases it is being driver by 10bit data.
Mostly this 10bit information is not surfaced to the computer driver 
normally 8 bits (8x3=24) are surfaced. The displays are then 
precalibrated with an internal (to the LCD) lookup table that 
translated 8bit values into 10 bit greyscale corrections. Some of 
the suppliers (Eizo for example) provide calibration software that 
can recalibrate the LCD and reload the LCD resident table. (Normal 
color calibration software cannot do this).

This is why a small, and only small, selection of LCD's will yield 
greayscale (and color) performance equivalent to a CRT, the rest 
will not.

Of course in every other way an LCD is better: lighter, brighter, 
less power and so on. But for photography (B&W or Color) the 
greyscale raggedness was and is a critical issue.

PS: just before posting I checked: and the Eizo ColorEdge CG220 with 
ColorNavigator is 14bits, as before translated back to 8bits.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Fields" 
<picnic@c...> wrote:
> I've read over and over for the last several months on one 'pro' 
forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end of 2005.  
Mine is not quite at the end of its very good life but it will 
probably be time to replace it in 2006.  I've been wondering just 
what I will do since I will have to choose an LCD, want a very good 
quality monitor but probably not the 'best' which is what they (pro 
forum) were recommending (because of price).  I calibrate of course--
-but am wondering from those that have switched from CRT to LCD what 
you are finding as to being able to calibrate to your standards (I 
tend to find this group has 'high' standards for the most part).  
> 
> Diane
> -----------
> Diane B. Fields
> picnic@c...
> photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: tariqgibranstudio 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:39 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Correcting exposure for Gray Gamma 1.8
> 
> 
> 
>   Your remark about monitors having their own "sweet spot" is the 
key I
>   think.  I have been back and forth with this issue and various
>   displays over the years.  Recently, I added a fairly high end NEC
>   2080UX LCD screen(the first LCD screen which was actually better 
than
>   the CRT Mitsubishi Diamontron and Lacies I had previously 
used!).
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by El Estudio

John,

Will the new Apple Cinema Displays render both
grayscale and color correctly?

Pablo
--- johnglodge <john.lodge@...> wrote:
> 
> It is always amusing to watch the kind if discussion
> that LCD/CRT 
> causes.
> 
> For a useful appraisal see www.displaymate.com
> 
> Basically on a LCD the greyscale is not as linear as
> it is with a 
> CRT. Not that a CRT is actually linear but it is a
> lot smoother and 
> more easily profiled.
> 
> Recently (well it started a few years ago with Sharp
> and Eizo and a 
> few others) manufacturers started putting 10bit
> DAC's in their 
> LCD's. That is the actual signal going to the LCD
> pixel is an analog 
> signal and in these cases it is being driver by
> 10bit data.
> Mostly this 10bit information is not surfaced to the
> computer driver 
> normally 8 bits (8x3=24) are surfaced. The displays
> are then 
> precalibrated with an internal (to the LCD) lookup
> table that 
> translated 8bit values into 10 bit greyscale
> corrections. Some of 
> the suppliers (Eizo for example) provide calibration
> software that 
> can recalibrate the LCD and reload the LCD resident
> table. (Normal 
> color calibration software cannot do this).
> 
> This is why a small, and only small, selection of
> LCD's will yield 
> greayscale (and color) performance equivalent to a
> CRT, the rest 
> will not.
> 
> Of course in every other way an LCD is better:
> lighter, brighter, 
> less power and so on. But for photography (B&W or
> Color) the 
> greyscale raggedness was and is a critical issue.
> 
> PS: just before posting I checked: and the Eizo
> ColorEdge CG220 with 
> ColorNavigator is 14bits, as before translated back
> to 8bits.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "Diane Fields" 
> <picnic@c...> wrote:
> > I've read over and over for the last several
> months on one 'pro' 
> forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the
> end of 2005.  
> Mine is not quite at the end of its very good life
> but it will 
> probably be time to replace it in 2006.  I've been
> wondering just 
> what I will do since I will have to choose an LCD,
> want a very good 
> quality monitor but probably not the 'best' which is
> what they (pro 
> forum) were recommending (because of price).  I
> calibrate of course--
> -but am wondering from those that have switched from
> CRT to LCD what 
> you are finding as to being able to calibrate to
> your standards (I 
> tend to find this group has 'high' standards for the
> most part).  
> > 
> > Diane
> > -----------
> > Diane B. Fields
> > picnic@c...
> > photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: tariqgibranstudio 
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> 
> >   Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:39 AM
> >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Correcting exposure
> for Gray Gamma 1.8
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Your remark about monitors having their own
> "sweet spot" is the 
> key I
> >   think.  I have been back and forth with this
> issue and various
> >   displays over the years.  Recently, I added a
> fairly high end NEC
> >   2080UX LCD screen(the first LCD screen which was
> actually better 
> than
> >   the CRT Mitsubishi Diamontron and Lacies I had
> previously 
> used!). 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 


		
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[Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Djon

Right I should have qualified "detail viewing." CRTs are certainly
superior to LCDs for zooming, but hardly any CRT rivals a good LCD in
other respects, especially re stability and aging (a CRT is a light
bulb burning out).  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Your kidding, right? What sizes are you referring to? A 19" LCD vs a 
> 19" CRT would be a hands down win for the CRT on detail. Zoom in!
> Mark
> 
> On Mar 18, 2005, at 11:26 AM, Djon wrote:
> 
> > and LCDs are far more effective than much larger CRTs for
> >  detail viewing (compare any good laptop with a much bigger CRT).
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Mark Savoia

Doesn't a LCD have a backlight that burns out over time? Mine just went 
on my video cam, they replaced the backlight on the 2" LCD screen, not 
the LCD screen.
Mark


On Mar 18, 2005, at 2:12 PM, Djon wrote:

> (a CRT is a light
>  bulb burning out).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Mark Savoia [mailto:mark@...]
>
> Doesn't a LCD have a backlight that burns out over time? Mine just went
> on my video cam, they replaced the backlight on the 2" LCD screen, not
> the LCD screen.

Yes. My IBM laptop backlight finally quit, so I got a new laptop. It was
under warrantee, so someone else will inherit it when it's fixed. It
gradually got dimmer, but was still usable until it started flickering. Then
it shut off completely. I don't know if it was the backlight itself or the
power supply for it.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

[Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Djon

One of the several reasons a CRT changes is the accumulation of carbon
on the inside, much like an incandescent light bulb (LCDs are
fluorescent). I'm not claiming an LCD lasts longer, just that it's
more stable through its life. 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Doesn't a LCD have a backlight that burns out over time? Mine just went 
> on my video cam, they replaced the backlight on the 2" LCD screen, not 
> the LCD screen.
> Mark
> 
> 
> On Mar 18, 2005, at 2:12 PM, Djon wrote:
> 
> > (a CRT is a light
> >  bulb burning out).
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-18 by Diane Fields

That's what I have understood--which is why we are told to calibrate quite regularly.

Diane
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Djon 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 2:12 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?




  Right I should have qualified "detail viewing." CRTs are certainly
  superior to LCDs for zooming, but hardly any CRT rivals a good LCD in
  other respects, especially re stability and aging (a CRT is a light
  bulb burning out).  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Ken Carney

My Sony 21" CRT was on its last legs (couldn't hit the high and low
calibration points, type a little fuzzy, etc.).  It was about five years
old, which others on this forum have advised is about the useful life.  Last
week I bought the Samsung 213T, which is a 21.3" LCD.  I calibrate with
SpyderPro, and it works well on the LCD, i.e., the prints (Epson 2200/IP6)
look like the monitor.  It swivels so you can use it in portrait mode also.
I have it plugged into an analog output (digital card is on the way), and it
looks great.   It has a native resolution of 1600x1200.  I paid $800 at
BestBuy.  I was thinking of the Apple Cinema 21", but it appears you really
need a Mac for that.  Anyway, I'm happy and have some more desk room.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diane Fields [mailto:picnic@...] 
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:59 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?
> 
> 
> I've read over and over for the last several months on one 
> 'pro' forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end 
> of 2005.  Mine is not quite at the end of its very good life 
> but it will probably be time to replace it in 2006.  I've 
> been wondering just what I will do since I will have to 
> choose an LCD, want a very good quality monitor but probably 
> not the 'best' which is what they (pro forum) were 
> recommending (because of price).  I calibrate of course---but 
> am wondering from those that have switched from CRT to LCD 
> what you are finding as to being able to calibrate to your 
> standards (I tend to find this group has 'high' standards for 
> the most part).  
> 
> Diane

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Diane Fields

That's good to know--but the info I found today showed (I thought) that the Apple Cinema worked with PC as well.  Ah---but just did some more searches on it---and found what you found--that it didn't 'play well' with PCs.  Found enough about this to warn me away from it even with its glowing reviews.  I'll look at this LCD--I'm trying to do my research before I need to--as my monitor is approaching the age of yours next year and I expect to replace it.

Diane
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ken Carney 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 8:20 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?


  My Sony 21" CRT was on its last legs (couldn't hit the high and low
  calibration points, type a little fuzzy, etc.).  It was about five years
  old, which others on this forum have advised is about the useful life.  Last
  week I bought the Samsung 213T, which is a 21.3" LCD.  I calibrate with
  SpyderPro, and it works well on the LCD, i.e., the prints (Epson 2200/IP6)
  look like the monitor.  It swivels so you can use it in portrait mode also.
  I have it plugged into an analog output (digital card is on the way), and it
  looks great.   It has a native resolution of 1600x1200.  I paid $800 at
  BestBuy.  I was thinking of the Apple Cinema 21", but it appears you really
  need a Mac for that.  Anyway, I'm happy and have some more desk room.

  Regards,

    --Ken Carney
      www.kencarney.com 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Anthony S. Tubbs

As a non pro is spyderpro something that would be in the price range of 
someone like me. Thanks Anthony

Ken Carney wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  Last
>week I bought the Samsung 213T, which is a 21.3" LCD.  I calibrate with
>SpyderPro, and it works well on the LCD, i.e., the prints (Epson 2200/IP6)
>look like the monitor.  It swivels so you can use it in portrait mode also.
>I have it plugged into an analog output (digital card is on the way), and it
>looks great.   It has a native resolution of 1600x1200.  I paid $800 at
>BestBuy.  
>  --Ken Carney
>    www.kencarney.com 
>
> 
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Diane Fields [mailto:picnic@...] 
>>Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:59 AM
>>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?
>>
>>
>>I've read over and over for the last several months on one 
>>'pro' forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end 
>>of 2005.  Mine is not quite at the end of its very good life 
>>but it will probably be time to replace it in 2006.  I've 
>>been wondering just what I will do since I will have to 
>>choose an LCD, want a very good quality monitor but probably 
>>not the 'best' which is what they (pro forum) were 
>>recommending (because of price).  I calibrate of course---but 
>>am wondering from those that have switched from CRT to LCD 
>>what you are finding as to being able to calibrate to your 
>>standards (I tend to find this group has 'high' standards for 
>>the most part).  
>>
>>Diane
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Diane Fields writes:

> I've read over and over for the last several months on one 'pro'
> forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end of 2005.

CRTs can be made very cheaply, and so they will probably continue to be
made and sold in some markets for years to come.  As flat panels
improve, however, the high-end of the CRT market will go away.  Sony has
already abandoned the Artisan (which I think a bit premature, but there
you have it).

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Mark Savoia

Sony abandoned the Artisan due to lack of sales. It is/was a great 
monitor, but overpriced.
Mark


On Mar 19, 2005, at 5:03 AM, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

> Diane Fields writes:
>
>  > I've read over and over for the last several months on one 'pro'
>  > forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end of 2005.
>
>  CRTs can be made very cheaply, and so they will probably continue to 
> be
>  made and sold in some markets for years to come.� As flat panels
>  improve, however, the high-end of the CRT market will go away.� Sony 
> has
>  already abandoned the Artisan (which I think a bit premature, but 
> there
>  you have it).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Bob Frost

I think you will find that Sony has given up making all CRT's, not just 
Artisans, and it gave up making the small cheap ones first.

From what I read, there were only four manufacturers of CRT tubes in the 
world - Sony, Mitsubishi, NEC, and Hitachi. All of these have I think 
discontinued or drastically reduced production of crt tubes. Apple are 
apparently not supplying crt monitors any more.

I think the bottom end has gone first, not the top end.

Bob Frost.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>

> I've read over and over for the last several months on one 'pro'
> forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end of 2005.

CRTs can be made very cheaply, and so they will probably continue to be
made and sold in some markets for years to come.  As flat panels
improve, however, the high-end of the CRT market will go away.  Sony has
already abandoned the Artisan (which I think a bit premature, but there
you have it).

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Steve Kale

It doesn't matter if they can be produced "cheaply" if an insufficient
number of people want them anymore.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:03:31 +0100
> To: Diane Fields <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?
> 
> 
> Diane Fields writes:
> 
>> I've read over and over for the last several months on one 'pro'
>> forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end of 2005.
> 
> CRTs can be made very cheaply, and so they will probably continue to be
> made and sold in some markets for years to come.  As flat panels
> improve, however, the high-end of the CRT market will go away.  Sony has
> already abandoned the Artisan (which I think a bit premature, but there
> you have it).
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Tom Baker

Does anyone know about the high end Sony LCD's?  
 
Tom Baker

Bob Frost <bob@...> wrote:

I think you will find that Sony has given up making all CRT's, not just 
Artisans, and it gave up making the small cheap ones first.

From what I read, there were only four manufacturers of CRT tubes in the 
world - Sony, Mitsubishi, NEC, and Hitachi. All of these have I think 
discontinued or drastically reduced production of crt tubes. Apple are 
apparently not supplying crt monitors any more.

I think the bottom end has gone first, not the top end.

Bob Frost.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" 

> I've read over and over for the last several months on one 'pro'
> forum that almost all CRTs will stop being made the end of 2005.

CRTs can be made very cheaply, and so they will probably continue to be
made and sold in some markets for years to come. As flat panels
improve, however, the high-end of the CRT market will go away. Sony has
already abandoned the Artisan (which I think a bit premature, but there
you have it).




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RE: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: dschiemann [mailto:DSCHIEMANN@...]
>
>     What about LaCie?  Or are their CRT tubes made by another mfr?  Would
> you now choose an LCD over a CRT for good image editing?  If so,
> which one?

Mitsubishi makes them.

My only problem with LCDs is insufficient pixels. I'm running 2048x1536 on
my old Nokia 21". My laptop has a 1920x1200 display, however, and I'm
looking into the 23" and 24" desktop models with that resolution from
Viewsonic and Samsung. I only wish I could find a 2048x1536 LCD for less
than the cost of all my camera gear.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Steve Kale writes:

> It doesn't matter if they can be produced "cheaply" if an insufficient
> number of people want them anymore.

A great many people still want them, because they are cheaper than flat
panels.  In many countries, the difference between $40 and $300 is huge.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Paul D. DeRocco writes:

> My only problem with LCDs is insufficient pixels. I'm running 2048x1536 on
> my old Nokia 21".

What dot pitch does this Nokia have that allows 2048x1536 on only a 21"
diagonal?

At 1600x1200 on my old Sony 20" monitor, the dot pitch was the same as
the pixel size.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Steve Kale

You assume price is a static notion.  As less and less people buy CRTs their
price will rise and as more and more buy LCDs their price can fall.

(Personally, though, I wish they they could get the pixel size of plasma
down - LCD is woeful vs plasma in terms of every other factor.)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:25:22 +0100
> To: Steve Kale <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?
> 
> 
> Steve Kale writes:
> 
>> It doesn't matter if they can be produced "cheaply" if an insufficient
>> number of people want them anymore.
> 
> A great many people still want them, because they are cheaper than flat
> panels.  In many countries, the difference between $40 and $300 is huge.
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-19 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Steve Kale writes:

> You assume price is a static notion.  As less and less people buy CRTs their
> price will rise and as more and more buy LCDs their price can fall.

There are several billion people who can only afford CRTs, if anything.
Until they earn more money or they all have CRTs, the market will
remain.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by Steve Kale

Again you assume price is static.  If the demand for CRTs falls they may
cost, say, $1000 (because only the high end specialist ones are then made
for niche players) whereas LCDs could be $100 because they are the
predominant component sought and produced (numbers for illustrative purposes
only).  What would the billions of people buy then - after they have bought
their cheap DIGITAL cameras.... ;-)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:33:28 +0100
> To: Steve Kale <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?
> 
> 
> Steve Kale writes:
> 
>> You assume price is a static notion.  As less and less people buy CRTs their
>> price will rise and as more and more buy LCDs their price can fall.
> 
> There are several billion people who can only afford CRTs, if anything.
> Until they earn more money or they all have CRTs, the market will
> remain.
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Steve Kale writes:

> If the demand for CRTs falls they may cost, say, $1000 ...

The worldwide demand for CRTs is strong, and is likely to remain that
way.  Most of the world has not yet bought a monitor, and most in that
category cannot afford a flat panel.

> ... whereas LCDs could be $100 because they are the
> predominant component sought and produced ...

But they aren't, at least not outside developed countries.  They cost
too much.

> What would the billions of people buy then - after they have bought
> their cheap DIGITAL cameras....

They aren't buying digital cameras.  They still shoot film, which is
much cheaper.

There's quite a bit to the world outside Silicon Valley.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by Steve Kale

Your arguments are tantamount to arguing that since a landline phone handset
costs less than a cellular phone handset, people want and will buy, in
developing countries, landline phones.  In fact quite the opposite is true.


> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>

> 
>> If the demand for CRTs falls they may cost, say, $1000 ...
> 
> The worldwide demand for CRTs is strong,

Why are they being dropped from production (low-end production first) and
new investment ceased in favour of newer technologies?

> and is likely to remain that
> way.  Most of the world has not yet bought a monitor, and most in that
> category cannot afford a flat panel.

They can't afford either but when they can they will buy the most readily
available technology.  On present trends that will not be CRT.
> 
>> ... whereas LCDs could be $100 because they are the
>> predominant component sought and produced ...
> 
> But they aren't, at least not outside developed countries.  They cost
> too much.
> 
Outside "developed countries" a camera or display is likely way down the
list of priorities.  But when these items do make it up the list you can be
assured that the most in demand and readily supplied technology will be
adopted by them - often leapfrogging various stages that the more developed
countries had to wade through (cellular telephony vs landline telephony is a
case in point).

>> What would the billions of people buy then - after they have bought
>> their cheap DIGITAL cameras....
> 
> They aren't buying digital cameras.  They still shoot film, which is
> much cheaper.

They either don't have either or those that do are adopting like conversion
to digital as with "developed" countries - because they are more convenient,
useful and cheaper.

Don't get me wrong, there will still be those that desire CRT or 35mm film,
for example, because they seek certain quality aspects or have a specialist
needs.  But they will have to pay the price and that price will, relatively
speaking, go up.  Just like first press vinyl records can, in some
instances, still be acquired for contemporary recordings.  But they cost a
lot more than a typical cd that can be mass produced.

Another conversation to be revisited in 5 year's time.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by Anthony S. Tubbs

Film is not cheaper simply do the math,  roll of  36 = $4  have same 
roll of film develope = 4$ total $8, Now I go buy a point and shoot 
digital 212mb card I get 150 shots, do this many times lets say just 
20,,,, 20x 150= 3000 3000 divided 36= 84 84 x 8 =672 dollars, I do 
believe this development charge is cheap and roll of film is cheap but 
your getting my drift, I can shoot digital over and over and over and 
not have 100's of shots I dont need or want. with digital I keep just 
what I want.               Anthony
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>They aren't buying digital cameras.  They still shoot film, which is
>much cheaper.
>
>There's quite a bit to the world outside Silicon Valley.
>
>
>
>
>  
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by Steve Kale

Wow!  Where can you get a roll of film developed for $4?  In London you
almost can't buy a cup of coffee for that! And don't even mention Paris....

  ;-)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Anthony S. Tubbs" <astubbs@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:35:39 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?
> 
> 
> Film is not cheaper simply do the math,  roll of  36 = $4  have same
> roll of film develope = 4$ total $8, Now I go buy a point and shoot
> digital 212mb card I get 150 shots, do this many times lets say just
> 20,,,, 20x 150= 3000 3000 divided 36= 84 84 x 8 =672 dollars, I do
> believe this development charge is cheap and roll of film is cheap but
> your getting my drift, I can shoot digital over and over and over and
> not have 100's of shots I dont need or want. with digital I keep just
> what I want.               Anthony
> 
>> They aren't buying digital cameras.  They still shoot film, which is
>> much cheaper.
>> 
>> There's quite a bit to the world outside Silicon Valley.
>>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by Anthony S. Tubbs

Steve: Exactly I was being low on the price side, I not saying digital 
the best or film is all I am saying is digital has open up a whole new 
ball game as far as the mom and pop taking photos of the babies. With 
digital I can shoot look picture looks crappy I reshoot get rid of old 
picture. cant do that with fim. film has to be developed. In the 
developing countries they want what is the new and best as they see it.  
The 4 dollar development fee is for the majority of the people who 
are'nt looking to have fine art prints, they just want some 4x6 or 5x7 
amd maybe a few 8 x10 of junior playing football or the missies doing 
her thing in school.  Digital gives them that way, shoot go home print 
be done. or take to local photo shop in the store down the week put in 
chip pick what you want print for 30 cents american. its the wave that 
the third world will be doing.  And as far as LCD go in todays they have 
several LCD on sale for the low cost of 199 to 299 15" and 17" no longer 
more expensive than a CRT.   Anthony

Steve Kale wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Wow!  Where can you get a roll of film developed for $4?  In London you
>almost can't buy a cup of coffee for that! And don't even mention Paris....
>
>  ;-)
>
>
>  
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by Steve Kale

Agree completely - as more people buy the lower quality LCDs the top quality
ones get even cheaper.

(BTW a large cappuccino can cost up to 6 euros in Paris - one less cup a day
and in a month you've got a Canon 4mp digital point and shoot)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Anthony S. Tubbs" <astubbs@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:49:43 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?
> 
> 
> Steve: Exactly I was being low on the price side, I not saying digital
> the best or film is all I am saying is digital has open up a whole new
> ball game as far as the mom and pop taking photos of the babies. With
> digital I can shoot look picture looks crappy I reshoot get rid of old
> picture. cant do that with fim. film has to be developed. In the
> developing countries they want what is the new and best as they see it.
> The 4 dollar development fee is for the majority of the people who
> are'nt looking to have fine art prints, they just want some 4x6 or 5x7
> amd maybe a few 8 x10 of junior playing football or the missies doing
> her thing in school.  Digital gives them that way, shoot go home print
> be done. or take to local photo shop in the store down the week put in
> chip pick what you want print for 30 cents american. its the wave that
> the third world will be doing.  And as far as LCD go in todays they have
> several LCD on sale for the low cost of 199 to 299 15" and 17" no longer
> more expensive than a CRT.   Anthony
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> Wow!  Where can you get a roll of film developed for $4?  In London you
>> almost can't buy a cup of coffee for that! And don't even mention Paris....
>> 
>>  ;-)

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by aderca@sbcglobal.net

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  From: Steve Kale 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 9:03 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?


  >> Steve Kale wrote:
  > 
  >> Wow!  Where can you get a roll of film developed for $4?  In London you
  >> almost can't buy a cup of coffee for that! And don't even mention Paris....
  >> 
  >>  ;-)

  My local photo store charges $2.75 for a roll of C41 processing and
   $5.00 for silver halide films. But it's hard to get them to do just the
  processing of the film without prints. So they make sure you don't ask for
  that again, I've had a few scratched rolls of film so I ended up getting 
  a Jobo processor. At least it is more fun although all in all, the cost of
  chemicals per roll does not amount to much lower, at least for C41.  
  Fuji processes slide film for $3.99 including mounting,
  I could not beat that with E6 chemicals unless I'd be processing
  on an industrial scale and buying the solutions by the gallon.
  Cheers !

  Andrei




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Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by Diane Fields

You all do know that you can buy a digicam for about the same as a film cam now--or less (not talking SLR--but small 35mm one).  Kodak and other 'known' names have quite basic, more than adequate for 8 x 10 prints and under digitals out there for $100 and there are many for quite a bit less--and you can buy a 128 MB SD or CF card for them for under $25.  You don't even have to have a computer--just pull the card and take it to the local drugstore kiosk and choose your pics, have them developed for 26 cents a copy.  When you check the digital photo forums you find people from all over the world--Europe, Asia, South America, etc.  I do think that's what you are saying, but just reiterating it.  

Also---there are LCDs out there for $200 (I was checking out the Samsung $800 model someone mentioned on this list and found the inexpensive ones that 'look' fine to the average computer user).  Most of the local computer stores just really have no CRTs in stock at all.  No one wants them (except us poor beleagured photographers LOL).

Diane
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anthony S. Tubbs 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 8:49 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?


  Steve: Exactly I was being low on the price side, I not saying digital 
  the best or film is all I am saying is digital has open up a whole new 
  ball game as far as the mom and pop taking photos of the babies. With 
  digital I can shoot look picture looks crappy I reshoot get rid of old 
  picture. cant do that with fim. film has to be developed. In the 
  developing countries they want what is the new and best as they see it.  
  The 4 dollar development fee is for the majority of the people who 
  are'nt looking to have fine art prints, they just want some 4x6 or 5x7 
  amd maybe a few 8 x10 of junior playing football or the missies doing 
  her thing in school.  Digital gives them that way, shoot go home print 
  be done. or take to local photo shop in the store down the week put in 
  chip pick what you want print for 30 cents american. its the wave that 
  the third world will be doing.  And as far as LCD go in todays they have 
  several LCD on sale for the low cost of 199 to 299 15" and 17" no longer 
  more expensive than a CRT.   Anthony

  Steve Kale wrote:

  >Wow!  Where can you get a roll of film developed for $4?  In London you
  >almost can't buy a cup of coffee for that! And don't even mention Paris....
  >
  >  ;-)
  >
  >
  >  
  >



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by Anthony S. Tubbs

All in All the majority of the people arent going to process their own 
film and with the majority of the places that use to process film have 
stop or no longer give 1 hour processing and with today gotta have right 
now that want work, so digital is right now I shoot I see and I can 
print.  I bought a Epson Picture Mate for my wife to use with her Cannon 
5mp camera, she has shot and printed 100's of shots not counting the 
ones she did'nt print of the baby, this could not have been done.  And 
you know what they equal any picture for the 1 hour photo as far as 
grandma, aunt etc is concerned.  This time next year the high end LCD 
will be better and much cheaper my 3 21" which were gettine dimmer and 
dimmer needed to be replace so I went looking for 21" CRT and not 
finding any local I would have to order. By the time I did all that they 
would cost more than the 21.3 LCD and take up three times the space, 
Seeing as I am not a professional design artist and looking to some B&W 
and Color fine art printing the SamSung more than met my needs.  I have 
two computer hook up to it and all it takes to switch from one to the 
other is pressing one button on the montor.     Now the question is what 
mid range calibration software/hardware do I buy ??
Thanks   Anthony

Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?

2005-03-20 by aderca@sbcglobal.net

Agreed, LCD's are the way to go and yes, CRT's take up
an awful amount of space. However, second hand CRT's
are an excellent value and the price keeps dropping as more
and more people upgrade to LCD's. I got a 21" Trinitron for
$100 which would have been unthinkable 5 years ago.
As far as calibration, Gretag's Eye One or Monaco's
Optix (consumer or Pro version) seem to be more in 
demand than anything else at the moment.
As far as picture quality is concerned, there are many
entry level LCD's misleading consumers into thinking
that the image has to be better just because this is new
technology and it looks sleek. So one needs to do proper
homework before making a decision.

Good luck in your search !

Andrei
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anthony S. Tubbs 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: CRTs not being made, what LCD for future?


  All in All the majority of the people arent going to process their own 
  film and with the majority of the places that use to process film have 
  stop or no longer give 1 hour processing and with today gotta have right 
  now that want work, so digital is right now I shoot I see and I can 
  print.  I bought a Epson Picture Mate for my wife to use with her Cannon 
  5mp camera, she has shot and printed 100's of shots not counting the 
  ones she did'nt print of the baby, this could not have been done.  And 
  you know what they equal any picture for the 1 hour photo as far as 
  grandma, aunt etc is concerned.  This time next year the high end LCD 
  will be better and much cheaper my 3 21" which were gettine dimmer and 
  dimmer needed to be replace so I went looking for 21" CRT and not 
  finding any local I would have to order. By the time I did all that they 
  would cost more than the 21.3 LCD and take up three times the space, 
  Seeing as I am not a professional design artist and looking to some B&W 
  and Color fine art printing the SamSung more than met my needs.  I have 
  two computer hook up to it and all it takes to switch from one to the 
  other is pressing one button on the montor.     Now the question is what 
  mid range calibration software/hardware do I buy ??
  Thanks   Anthony




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