Digital BW, The Print

I have been using Epson Ultra Smooth due to its archival qualities and have been fairly 
happy with it but I'm always on the lookout for something with just that little extra bit of 
D-max/black density.  Recently I tried a sample pack from Hahnemuhle and was very 
impressed with the blacks.  They seem to be slightly but still visually blacker than what i'm 
getting from UltraSmooth.  I will also be testing some Innova soon.  My question and 
concern(besides the flaking people speak about with the Hahnemuhle) is the use of Optical 
Brightners due to archival issues.  From the info published by Hahnemuhle, it would 
appear that Photo Rag AND German Etching list Optical brightners as a "Special Feature".  
William Turner does not list Optical Brightners as a feature.  That seems a little odd in that 
the German Etching is also described as "Natural White" which would lead one to believe 
that Optical Brightners were not used?  That's very misleading.  And as far as Innova is 
concerned, I can find no info whatsoever concerning the use or non use of optical 
brighners.  Does anyone know if Innova papers use Optical Brightners?  They do mention 
"Opti-coat".  Thanks,

Tariq

By the color ( same as Photorag ) you can tell that Innova Smooth Cotton  
does have some optical brighteners. I don't belive the Soft Texture does but 
I'm not sure about that. You can call Jim at Shades Of Paper and ask him. He 
is the expert. That is new to me that German Etching has brighteners. If it does 
they are very minimal.

I used to be afraid of even using Photorag because of this issue. But then it 
was pointed out to me that all the gelatin silver prints that my photo heroes 
used since the 1940's also had them as do many traditional Intaglio 
printmaking media. I do spray these ob papers  with the uv sprays which I 
believe will lessen the potential for problems down the line. However, if you 
look at Wilhelm's test results of Somerset Velvet that contains quite a bit of 
ob's, its stability ratings are as high or higher than other media that do not 
have them. So, apparently it is not a singular factor. There are other 
considerations. As someone pointed out on this group a while back, not all 
ob's are created equal. There are some that deteriorate more quickly while 
others are much more stable, just as in the situation with the ph of coatings 
and paper bases.

It would be nice to have a whole scientific paper describing these things 
though, wouldn't it. So to a degree we wouldn't have to speculate.

My personal feeling is that Innova is in this for the long haul, have done their 
homework, and they know the repercussions of mistakes and bad press. 

Paul Roark may be able to comment more fully on all this. He's actually done 
comparison tests of many papers in this regard.

John

It would be nice to know, in the first instance, simply whether a paper has
them or not.  I thought HPR and Permajet Alpha did not have Ops.  Is this
correct?

> From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>

> 
> 
> By the color ( same as Photorag ) you can tell that Innova Smooth Cotton
> does have some optical brighteners. I don't belive the Soft Texture does but
> I'm not sure about that. You can call Jim at Shades Of Paper and ask him. He
> is the expert. That is new to me that German Etching has brighteners. If it
> does 
> they are very minimal.
> 
> I used to be afraid of even using Photorag because of this issue. But then it
> was pointed out to me that all the gelatin silver prints that my photo heroes
> used since the 1940's also had them as do many traditional Intaglio
> printmaking media. I do spray these ob papers  with the uv sprays which I
> believe will lessen the potential for problems down the line. However, if you
> look at Wilhelm's test results of Somerset Velvet that contains quite a bit of
> ob's, its stability ratings are as high or higher than other media that do not
> have them. So, apparently it is not a singular factor. There are other
> considerations. As someone pointed out on this group a while back, not all
> ob's are created equal. There are some that deteriorate more quickly while
> others are much more stable, just as in the situation with the ph of coatings
> and paper bases.
> 
> It would be nice to have a whole scientific paper describing these things
> though, wouldn't it. So to a degree we wouldn't have to speculate.
> 
> My personal feeling is that Innova is in this for the long haul, have done
> their 
> homework, and they know the repercussions of mistakes and bad press.
> 
> Paul Roark may be able to comment more fully on all this. He's actually done
> comparison tests of many papers in this regard.
> 
> John

If you have a black light available you can check your papers for OBAs if you don't already have that info. OBAs will "glow" under a blacklight.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Diana

I don't have a black light - do you know the answer for HRP and PJA?
Obviously they are not Hawk Mountain papers but perhaps you have done "black
light tests" on them.

Steve

> From: Diana York~Hawk Mtn Papers <diana@...>

> 
> If you have a black light available you can check your papers for OBAs if you
> don't already have that info. OBAs will "glow" under a blacklight.
>

Great suggestion. She's right. Ob's fluoresce under uv light, this is what makes 
the highlights brighten under daylight and give the appearance of greater 
luminance. I would guess the more the glow, the more obs?

John

> 
> It would be nice to know, in the first instance, simply 
>whether a paper has them or not.  
>I thought HPR and Permajet Alpha did not have Ops.  

Photo Rag does have brighteners.  PermaJet Alpha does not.  The Innova
papers vary.  If a paper says, "High white" in the name, it probably has
them.  If the name "soft" or "natural" is in the name, it probably does not.
Jim or a black light will have to verify this, however.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks for your reply and additional info.  I was very surprised to learn German Etching 
had OB's(downloaded the PDF from ShadesOfPaper and it is listed in special features for 
German Etching).  Somerset Velvet for Epson has half the rating of Epson UltraSmooth in 
the Wilhelm data(90 vs 205 years for B&W under glass with UltraChrome).  Thats a pretty 
significant difference.  

Tariq


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:

> 
> By the color ( same as Photorag ) you can tell that Innova Smooth Cotton  
> does have some optical brighteners. I don't belive the Soft Texture does but 
> I'm not sure about that. You can call Jim at Shades Of Paper and ask him. He 
> is the expert. That is new to me that German Etching has brighteners. If it does 
> they are very minimal.
> 
> I used to be afraid of even using Photorag because of this issue. But then it 
> was pointed out to me that all the gelatin silver prints that my photo heroes 
> used since the 1940's also had them as do many traditional Intaglio 
> printmaking media. I do spray these ob papers  with the uv sprays which I 
> believe will lessen the potential for problems down the line. However, if you 
> look at Wilhelm's test results of Somerset Velvet that contains quite a bit of 
> ob's, its stability ratings are as high or higher than other media that do not 
> have them. So, apparently it is not a singular factor. There are other 
> considerations. As someone pointed out on this group a while back, not all 
> ob's are created equal. There are some that deteriorate more quickly while 
> others are much more stable, just as in the situation with the ph of coatings 
> and paper bases.
> 
> It would be nice to have a whole scientific paper describing these things 
> though, wouldn't it. So to a degree we wouldn't have to speculate.
> 
> My personal feeling is that Innova is in this for the long haul, have done their 
> homework, and they know the repercussions of mistakes and bad press. 
> 
> Paul Roark may be able to comment more fully on all this. He's actually done 
> comparison tests of many papers in this regard.
> 
> John