Digital BW, The Print

I found that I have a complete set of the old FSN inks from MIS. Can I 
use the curve creator capability of QTR to make a paper/ink curve for 
the paper I am using now?

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

Johnny,

> I found that I have a complete set of the old FSN inks from MIS. Can 
I 
> use the curve creator capability of QTR to make a paper/ink curve for 
> the paper I am using now?

IMO, yes if you are using one of the supported printers.

Don Bryant

-Don,

It's strange you replied to my question because I think I bought the 
inks from you or Don Hill when they were offered to this group about 
a year ago.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny
-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "donbga" 
<dstevenbryant@m...> wrote:
> Johnny,
> 
> > I found that I have a complete set of the old FSN inks from MIS. 
Can 
> I 
> > use the curve creator capability of QTR to make a paper/ink curve 
for 

> > the paper I am using now?
> 
> IMO, yes if you are using one of the supported printers.
> 
> Don Bryant

I've done it for my 1160 with Museo, although I haven't completed it
yet. I have two areas where the output is screwed-up due to using my
ScanMaker4 for analyzing the 21 patches (the SM4 does not read the
light tones well): there is a bit of a gap between the 100% and 95%
patches that needs to be smoothed out and the light tones from 20%
down are totally botched and would have to be hand corrected, which I
find to be too tedious.

Following the new version of the tutorial was much better than the
earlier one and I actually got all the way through in one session with
no problems with the QTR Curve Maker procedure.

Since Paul Roark's curves work pretty well with this inkset on
PhotoRag and EEM, I may not bother to try to fix my QTR curve for
Museo (which I'm phasing-out), but I do have one slight problem with
Paul's PhotoRag workflow, about which I'm awaiting an answer, but
that's another subject.

Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
<jeades1@s...> wrote:

> I found that I have a complete set of the old FSN inks from MIS. Can I 
> use the curve creator capability of QTR to make a paper/ink curve for 
> the paper I am using now?
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny

Frank,
There is a website that has been mentioned here often-Tom Zuber 
(www.Zubergraphics.com)that has an abundant amount of data on BW 
printing; one being determining the Black Point and White Point your 
paper/ink combination is capable of handling. After getting a 
densitometer deal on Ebay, I have found that I was laying too much 
ink on the paper to the point of it buckling. My BP (Black Point) has 
been changed to Input=0 Output=28 and I find that my tonal range is 
much longer in the lower values. You may want to go to that site and 
study some of the information for Black and White printing. 

Now that I've heard that FSN inks can be utilized in QTR curve 
creator, I'll get to working on that.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny


In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "njfranknj" 
<kolwicz@e...> wrote:
> I've done it for my 1160 with Museo, although I haven't completed it
> yet. I have two areas where the output is screwed-up due to using my
> ScanMaker4 for analyzing the 21 patches (the SM4 does not read the
> light tones well): there is a bit of a gap between the 100% and 95%
> patches that needs to be smoothed out and the light tones from 20%
> down are totally botched and would have to be hand corrected, which 
I
> find to be too tedious.
> 
> Following the new version of the tutorial was much better than the
> earlier one and I actually got all the way through in one session 
with
> no problems with the QTR Curve Maker procedure.
> 
> Since Paul Roark's curves work pretty well with this inkset on
> PhotoRag and EEM, I may not bother to try to fix my QTR curve for
> Museo (which I'm phasing-out), but I do have one slight problem with
> Paul's PhotoRag workflow, about which I'm awaiting an answer, but
> that's another subject.
> 
> Frank
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > I found that I have a complete set of the old FSN inks from MIS. 
Can I 
> > use the curve creator capability of QTR to make a paper/ink curve 
for 

> > the paper I am using now?
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny

Johnny

ANY inks can be used with QTR.  It is up to you to decide which inks will be
used to make up the greyscale curve.  There is nothing stopping you from
having a purple scale if you wanted if you decided to make a scale with
purple inks.  So go through the normal process with the FSN, choosing how
and which inks you want to make the particular greyscale and in which order.
RE your input/output/blackpoint issue I strongly recommend letting the QTR
ICC profiles do that as described.  You'll get an accurate mapping of the
bkpt and points in between.  The average profiles that are provided for
matte and photo paper respectively are good enough for almost all such
papers.

Steve

> From: Johnny Eades <jeades1@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:33:03 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR question
> 
> Frank,
> There is a website that has been mentioned here often-Tom Zuber
> (www.Zubergraphics.com)that has an abundant amount of data on BW
> printing; one being determining the Black Point and White Point your
> paper/ink combination is capable of handling. After getting a
> densitometer deal on Ebay, I have found that I was laying too much
> ink on the paper to the point of it buckling. My BP (Black Point) has
> been changed to Input=0 Output=28 and I find that my tonal range is
> much longer in the lower values. You may want to go to that site and
> study some of the information for Black and White printing.
> 
> Now that I've heard that FSN inks can be utilized in QTR curve
> creator, I'll get to working on that.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
>

Steve,

Thanks for your information about using any inkset.I'll install them 
and run the ink separation/curve creator procedure. When using one of 
the already created curves (EEM) as the basis for my first curve on 
H'muhle Photo Matte 170gsm paper, I found too much ink was laid down 
and caused buckling of the paper, even after linearizing the inks. 
Then I used Tom Zuber Black Point procedure to determine the least 
amount of ink that would produce maximum black without loosing DMax. 
Now my shadows have a longer ---  tonal range and details that were 
not visible before changing the BP are visible now. And it saves me 
from wasting a lot of ink unneccessarily.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny 

In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Johnny
> 
> ANY inks can be used with QTR.  It is up to you to decide which 
inks will be
> used to make up the greyscale curve.  There is nothing stopping you 
from
> having a purple scale if you wanted if you decided to make a scale 
with
> purple inks.  So go through the normal process with the FSN, 
choosing how
> and which inks you want to make the particular greyscale and in 
which order.
> RE your input/output/blackpoint issue I strongly recommend letting 
the QTR
> ICC profiles do that as described.  You'll get an accurate mapping 
of the
> bkpt and points in between.  The average profiles that are provided 
for
> matte and photo paper respectively are good enough for almost all 
such
> papers.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> > From: Johnny Eades <jeades1@s...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:33:03 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR question
> > 
> > Frank,
> > There is a website that has been mentioned here often-Tom Zuber
> > (www.Zubergraphics.com)that has an abundant amount of data on BW
> > printing; one being determining the Black Point and White Point 
your
> > paper/ink combination is capable of handling. After getting a
> > densitometer deal on Ebay, I have found that I was laying too much
> > ink on the paper to the point of it buckling. My BP (Black Point) 
has
> > been changed to Input=0 Output=28 and I find that my tonal range 
is
> > much longer in the lower values. You may want to go to that site 
and

> > study some of the information for Black and White printing.
> > 
> > Now that I've heard that FSN inks can be utilized in QTR curve
> > creator, I'll get to working on that.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny
> >

The ink load will be fixed/determined by your curve creation - note it is
dpi setting dependent.  The ICC profiles are a better (more sophisticated)
way of dealing with tonal compression.

> From: Johnny Eades <jeades1@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 17:04:08 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR question
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Thanks for your information about using any inkset.I'll install them
> and run the ink separation/curve creator procedure. When using one of
> the already created curves (EEM) as the basis for my first curve on
> H'muhle Photo Matte 170gsm paper, I found too much ink was laid down
> and caused buckling of the paper, even after linearizing the inks.
> Then I used Tom Zuber Black Point procedure to determine the least
> amount of ink that would produce maximum black without loosing DMax.
> Now my shadows have a longer ---  tonal range and details that were
> not visible before changing the BP are visible now. And it saves me
> from wasting a lot of ink unneccessarily.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny 
>

Hi, I'm interesting in the www.Zubergraphics.com, but the link don't 
work.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@s...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> Thanks for your information about using any inkset.I'll install 
them 
> and run the ink separation/curve creator procedure. When using one 
of 
> the already created curves (EEM) as the basis for my first curve on 
> H'muhle Photo Matte 170gsm paper, I found too much ink was laid 
down 
> and caused buckling of the paper, even after linearizing the inks. 
> Then I used Tom Zuber Black Point procedure to determine the least 
> amount of ink that would produce maximum black without loosing 
DMax. 
> Now my shadows have a longer ---  tonal range and details that were 
> not visible before changing the BP are visible now. And it saves me 
> from wasting a lot of ink unneccessarily.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny 
> 
> In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > Johnny
> > 
> > ANY inks can be used with QTR.  It is up to you to decide which 
> inks will be
> > used to make up the greyscale curve.  There is nothing stopping 
you 
> from
> > having a purple scale if you wanted if you decided to make a 
scale 
> with
> > purple inks.  So go through the normal process with the FSN, 
> choosing how
> > and which inks you want to make the particular greyscale and in 
> which order.
> > RE your input/output/blackpoint issue I strongly recommend 
letting 
> the QTR
> > ICC profiles do that as described.  You'll get an accurate 
mapping 
> of the
> > bkpt and points in between.  The average profiles that are 
provided 
> for
> > matte and photo paper respectively are good enough for almost all 
> such
> > papers.
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > > From: Johnny Eades <jeades1@s...>
> > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:33:03 -0000
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR question
> > > 
> > > Frank,
> > > There is a website that has been mentioned here often-Tom Zuber
> > > (www.Zubergraphics.com)that has an abundant amount of data on BW
> > > printing; one being determining the Black Point and White Point 
> your
> > > paper/ink combination is capable of handling. After getting a
> > > densitometer deal on Ebay, I have found that I was laying too 
much
> > > ink on the paper to the point of it buckling. My BP (Black 
Point) 
> has
> > > been changed to Input=0 Output=28 and I find that my tonal 
range 
> is
> > > much longer in the lower values. You may want to go to that 
site 

> and
> > > study some of the information for Black and White printing.
> > > 
> > > Now that I've heard that FSN inks can be utilized in QTR curve
> > > creator, I'll get to working on that.
> > > 
> > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > 
> > > Johnny
> > >

Does that mean if I want less ink laid down (not causing a sheen on 
the darker areas) then I need to choose a lower percentage on the ink 
separation chart as the darkest ink used and compare the others to 
that step?

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> The ink load will be fixed/determined by your curve creation - note 
it is
> dpi setting dependent.  The ICC profiles are a better (more 
sophisticated)
> way of dealing with tonal compression.
> 
> 
> > From: Johnny Eades <jeades1@s...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 17:04:08 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR question
> > 
> > Steve,
> > 
> > Thanks for your information about using any inkset.I'll install 
them
> > and run the ink separation/curve creator procedure. When using 
one of
> > the already created curves (EEM) as the basis for my first curve 
on
> > H'muhle Photo Matte 170gsm paper, I found too much ink was laid 
down
> > and caused buckling of the paper, even after linearizing the inks.
> > Then I used Tom Zuber Black Point procedure to determine the least
> > amount of ink that would produce maximum black without loosing 
DMax.
> > Now my shadows have a longer ---  tonal range and details that 
were
> > not visible before changing the BP are visible now. And it saves 
me

> > from wasting a lot of ink unneccessarily.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny 
> >

OOPS MY MISTAKE. It should be www.zuberphotographics.com

Your friend in photography,

Johnny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "copal01" 
<copal01@y...> wrote:
> Hi, I'm interesting in the www.Zubergraphics.com, but the link 
don't 
> work.
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > Steve,
> > 
> > Thanks for your information about using any inkset.I'll install 
> them 
> > and run the ink separation/curve creator procedure. When using 
one 
> of 
> > the already created curves (EEM) as the basis for my first curve 
on 
> > H'muhle Photo Matte 170gsm paper, I found too much ink was laid 
> down 
> > and caused buckling of the paper, even after linearizing the 
inks. 
> > Then I used Tom Zuber Black Point procedure to determine the 
least 
> > amount of ink that would produce maximum black without loosing 
> DMax. 
> > Now my shadows have a longer ---  tonal range and details that 
were 
> > not visible before changing the BP are visible now. And it saves 
me 
> > from wasting a lot of ink unneccessarily.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny 
> > 
> > In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> > <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > > Johnny
> > > 
> > > ANY inks can be used with QTR.  It is up to you to decide which 
> > inks will be
> > > used to make up the greyscale curve.  There is nothing stopping 
> you 
> > from
> > > having a purple scale if you wanted if you decided to make a 
> scale 
> > with
> > > purple inks.  So go through the normal process with the FSN, 
> > choosing how
> > > and which inks you want to make the particular greyscale and in 
> > which order.
> > > RE your input/output/blackpoint issue I strongly recommend 
> letting 
> > the QTR
> > > ICC profiles do that as described.  You'll get an accurate 
> mapping 
> > of the
> > > bkpt and points in between.  The average profiles that are 
> provided 
> > for
> > > matte and photo paper respectively are good enough for almost 
all 
> > such
> > > papers.
> > > 
> > > Steve
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > From: Johnny Eades <jeades1@s...>
> > > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:33:03 -0000
> > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR question
> > > > 
> > > > Frank,
> > > > There is a website that has been mentioned here often-Tom 
Zuber
> > > > (www.Zubergraphics.com)that has an abundant amount of data on 
BW
> > > > printing; one being determining the Black Point and White 
Point 

> > your
> > > > paper/ink combination is capable of handling. After getting a
> > > > densitometer deal on Ebay, I have found that I was laying too 
> much
> > > > ink on the paper to the point of it buckling. My BP (Black 
> Point) 
> > has
> > > > been changed to Input=0 Output=28 and I find that my tonal 
> range 
> > is
> > > > much longer in the lower values. You may want to go to that 
> site 
> > and
> > > > study some of the information for Black and White printing.
> > > > 
> > > > Now that I've heard that FSN inks can be utilized in QTR curve
> > > > creator, I'll get to working on that.
> > > > 
> > > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > > 
> > > > Johnny
> > > >

Thanks ;)


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@s...> wrote:
> OOPS MY MISTAKE. It should be www.zuberphotographics.com
> 
> Your friend in photography,
> 
> Johnny
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "copal01" 
> <copal01@y...> wrote:
> > Hi, I'm interesting in the www.Zubergraphics.com, but the link 
> don't 
> > work.
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny 
Eades" 
> > <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > Steve,
> > > 
> > > Thanks for your information about using any inkset.I'll install 
> > them 
> > > and run the ink separation/curve creator procedure. When using 
> one 
> > of 
> > > the already created curves (EEM) as the basis for my first 
curve 
> on 
> > > H'muhle Photo Matte 170gsm paper, I found too much ink was laid 
> > down 
> > > and caused buckling of the paper, even after linearizing the 
> inks. 
> > > Then I used Tom Zuber Black Point procedure to determine the 
> least 
> > > amount of ink that would produce maximum black without loosing 
> > DMax. 
> > > Now my shadows have a longer ---  tonal range and details that 
> were 
> > > not visible before changing the BP are visible now. And it 
saves 
> me 
> > > from wasting a lot of ink unneccessarily.
> > > 
> > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > 
> > > Johnny 
> > > 
> > > In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> > > <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > > > Johnny
> > > > 
> > > > ANY inks can be used with QTR.  It is up to you to decide 
which 
> > > inks will be
> > > > used to make up the greyscale curve.  There is nothing 
stopping 
> > you 
> > > from
> > > > having a purple scale if you wanted if you decided to make a 
> > scale 
> > > with
> > > > purple inks.  So go through the normal process with the FSN, 
> > > choosing how
> > > > and which inks you want to make the particular greyscale and 
in 
> > > which order.
> > > > RE your input/output/blackpoint issue I strongly recommend 
> > letting 
> > > the QTR
> > > > ICC profiles do that as described.  You'll get an accurate 
> > mapping 
> > > of the
> > > > bkpt and points in between.  The average profiles that are 
> > provided 
> > > for
> > > > matte and photo paper respectively are good enough for almost 
> all 
> > > such
> > > > papers.
> > > > 
> > > > Steve
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > From: Johnny Eades <jeades1@s...>
> > > > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:33:03 -0000
> > > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR question
> > > > > 
> > > > > Frank,
> > > > > There is a website that has been mentioned here often-Tom 
> Zuber
> > > > > (www.Zubergraphics.com)that has an abundant amount of data 
on 
> BW
> > > > > printing; one being determining the Black Point and White 
> Point 
> > > your
> > > > > paper/ink combination is capable of handling. After getting 
a
> > > > > densitometer deal on Ebay, I have found that I was laying 
too 
> > much
> > > > > ink on the paper to the point of it buckling. My BP (Black 
> > Point) 
> > > has
> > > > > been changed to Input=0 Output=28 and I find that my tonal 
> > range 
> > > is
> > > > > much longer in the lower values. You may want to go to that 
> > site 
> > > and
> > > > > study some of the information for Black and White printing.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Now that I've heard that FSN inks can be utilized in QTR 
curve

> > > > > creator, I'll get to working on that.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Johnny
> > > > >

In compiling an ink curve you need to first determine what resolution you
intend to print with it and then stick with that throughout the process.
The ink limits will determine overall ink load for each ink.  Get the ink
limits right (ie enough but not toooo much ink at 100% for each) and then
determine your partitioning relative to the first "K" ink.

> From: Johnny Eades <jeades1@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 17:26:55 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR question
> 
> Does that mean if I want less ink laid down (not causing a sheen on
> the darker areas) then I need to choose a lower percentage on the ink
> separation chart as the darkest ink used and compare the others to
> that step?
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
>

I think you've got it right. It goes as follows:

1. Print the separation chart with 100% ink limit and determine an 
overall ink limit for all the inks.

2. Reprint the chart with the chosen ink limit, effectively making 100% 
for every ink as strong as the chosen ink limit.

3. Use this second print of the chart to compare the inks.

If you later decide to change the ink limits for your curve you should 
start from step 2 and print a chart with the new ink limit and compare 
the inks again.

You don't have to worry about reducing dmax during ink limiting either. 
The black boost parameter is designed specifically to apply a separate 
ink limit to the deepest shadows of the darkest ink in the curve so you 
can get full dmax from your black.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no


Johnny Eades wrote:

> Does that mean if I want less ink laid down (not causing a sheen on 
> the darker areas) then I need to choose a lower percentage on the ink 
> separation chart as the darkest ink used and compare the others to 
> that step?

Johnny,

> and caused buckling of the paper, 

FYI, this is also refered to as cockling.

> Then I used Tom Zuber Black Point procedure to determine the least 
> amount of ink that would produce maximum black without loosing DMax. 

I've not heard of the Tom Zuber Black Point procedure. Can you describe 
it?

Thanks,

Don Bryant

Don, 

Tom Zuber can do a much better job than I. His site is 
WWW.Zuberphotograhics.com  Basically it determines the minimum amount 
of ink that needs to be laid down to produce the darkeest visible 
black. For me it also lenthens the lower Zones tonal range and opens 
the shadow values to allow more detail to be seen without losing 
visible Dmax. 

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "donbga" 
<dstevenbryant@m...> wrote:
> Johnny,
> 
> > and caused buckling of the paper, 
> 
> FYI, this is also refered to as cockling.
> 
> > Then I used Tom Zuber Black Point procedure to determine the 
least 
> > amount of ink that would produce maximum black without loosing 
DMax. 
> 
> I've not heard of the Tom Zuber Black Point procedure. Can you 
describe 

> it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Don Bryant