Digital BW, The Print

Adobe Camera Raw 3.1 is now available for downloading.  It seems to work
very well with my PS CS2 and Canon Rebel XT (350D).  See

 

http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/04/adobe-camera-raw-31-posted/

 

I was curious about the ability to deal with red-blue fringing of the wide
angle lenses.  It works well in terms of getting rid of the fringes, but it
appears to me that sharpness is decreased by this adjustment, at leas when I
experiment with is while looking at the resolution test charts.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello I was just calumet photo near san diego, and they were have a 
special day where all the reps from different companies were answering 
questions etc.
They had a lady from lyson showing the new darkroom series. I started 
talking to her about the fact that I gave up on lyson and switched to 
MIS/Roark. I told her it was because the prints either came out green, 
or turned green, or turned greener. She did have some real nice looking 
prints. The Darkroom gloss was the most impressive with a carbon 
colored print. I asked to see a neutral print and she showed me a green 
one. I said wow that is green. She said that was someone's idea of 
neutral, and I had to accept that. Then she showed me another print 
that was on darkroom satin. Wow, it was nice too and perfectly neutral 
to me. She said that was the beauty of the system, being able to define 
what you think neutral is. The surface of the satin paper was very 
subtle, as is the glossy...Only slightly glossy. Both were very 
elegant. She was very nice and gave me the neutral satin print to take 
home, and set in my window to see if it fades. When I walked out of the 
store, guess what happened......
Green satin print. Green green.I just walked around with that print and 
one of my UT2/glop/epson semi-matte prints, and the Ut2 does not change 
color like the lyson print does when going from room to room 
etc.......I am pretty sure the lyson is still dye ink.
for what it's worth....Doug m

Douglas meeuwsen wrote:

> When I walked out of the
> store, guess what happened......
> Green satin print. Green green.I just walked around with that print and
> one of my UT2/glop/epson semi-matte prints, and the Ut2 does not change
> color like the lyson print does when going from room to room
> etc.......I am pretty sure the lyson is still dye ink.
> for what it's worth....Doug m
>
The Lysons are dye inks. But the metamerism you are seeing isn't due to 
the dye inks. It's due, I think, to Lyson using a mixture of color inks 
to make gray, instead of using a gray ink. It's not at all the same 
thing. Using color inks leads to some apparently serious metamerism.

It's a shame really. The Dmax performance of the Lyson dyes is 
outstanding. The Darkroom line of papers is also outstanding and it 
really only works well with dye inks. Now if they could only fix their 
metamerism problem....
--
Bruce Watson

Douglas,

Thanks very much for the report.  I've wondered what that ink system
was like.

>She was very nice and gave me the neutral satin print to take 
>home, and set in my window to see if it fades. 

Please do it.  Tape a strip of matt board or something across part of
it, write the date on it and put it on a windowsill or somewhere that
gets good exposure.  Have a peek once a month and let us know what
happens.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
...
> The Lysons are dye inks. But the metamerism you are seeing isn't due to 
> the dye inks. It's due, I think, to Lyson using a mixture of color inks 
> to make gray, instead of using a gray ink.

That's been the word all along. Few people now hearing about this
"new" darkroom series realize that it's the same darn ink I and many
tried years ago before there was even a Piezography product. We all
gave up on it back then because of metamerism despite great Wilhelm
ratings.
It's not at all the same 
...
> It's a shame really. The Dmax performance of the Lyson dyes is 
> outstanding. The Darkroom line of papers is also outstanding and it 
> really only works well with dye inks...

It's a shame this stuff wasn't reformulated from the ground up years
ago, we could use this alternative to the art papers and pigment.
They've updated Fotonics, developed Cave Paints, but keep pushing this
stuff. Their only market will be the naive.

Tyler

I was browsing the Inkjet Goodies site today and noticed that the Lyson 
Darkroom glossy paper was one they offered.  I've used the Lyson Quad 
Black inks for several years in a Canon S9000 printer with so-so results 
on Ilford Galerie Smooth Gloss and Smooth Pearl papers (results were 
better on the Lyson brand papers, but they're considerably more 
expensive than Ilford so I didn't use them much.)  I wondered if the new 
Lyson papers might work better than the old with my inks, and wrote 
Inkjet Goodies to see if they had any info.  Here is the essence of 
their reply (which arrived about 20 minutes after I sent my inquiry - I 
was very impressed.)

I have spoken with Lyson about this to get a second opinion.  The 
daylight darkroom paper is again designed to work specifically with the 
darkroom inks on the Epson 1280, 2000p, 2200, 4000 and 7600/9600 only.
You are correct they are not going to expand that inkset to include 
Canon printers so it may not give you the quality you are looking for by 
using that paper with the Quad Black inks.  Our Lyson distributor has no 
idea if the Daylight Darkroom paper will work well without the 
corresponding inks, so it would be an experiment on your part to try them.
He did let me know that the formulation of the Quad Black inks and 
Daylight Darkroom are very different, and we would all like to know your 
results if you decided to try.

So according to Lyson this is not just the same old ink.  I don't have 
one of the specified Epson printers and don't plan to get one (I use 
mostly a C84/EZ setup now and am very pleased with the results on matte 
paper) and decided not to see if the new papers worked with the Quad 
Black inks.  If I had more time and were still as interested in glossy 
prints as I used to be I might have taken on the experiment, but as it 
is I'll leave it to others.  I did see a post (maybe it was earlier in 
this thread) that someone had seen a sample print done by Lyson with the 
full Daylight Darkroom process and thought it was outstanding.

Cheers,
Kip

Tyler Boley wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
>...
>  
>
>>The Lysons are dye inks. But the metamerism you are seeing isn't due to 
>>the dye inks. It's due, I think, to Lyson using a mixture of color inks 
>>to make gray, instead of using a gray ink.
>>    
>>
>
>That's been the word all along. Few people now hearing about this
>"new" darkroom series realize that it's the same darn ink I and many
>tried years ago before there was even a Piezography product. We all
>gave up on it back then because of metamerism despite great Wilhelm
>ratings.
>It's not at all the same 
>...
>  
>
>>It's a shame really. The Dmax performance of the Lyson dyes is 
>>outstanding. The Darkroom line of papers is also outstanding and it 
>>really only works well with dye inks...
>>    
>>
>
>It's a shame this stuff wasn't reformulated from the ground up years
>ago, we could use this alternative to the art papers and pigment.
>They've updated Fotonics, developed Cave Paints, but keep pushing this
>stuff. Their only market will be the naive.
>
>Tyler
>  
>

It is my understanding that the Daylight Darkroom inks are a mix of  
two old sets of inks - the quad blacks and the C, M, and Y from the  
Small Gamut inkset (at lest that is what the beta testers reported  
early in the game).   I've seen sample prints made with these inks on  
Darkroom Gloss and although metamerism is much better controlled  
compared to prints made with the straight quad blacks it was still  
present in the form of a slight green cast in daylight.  They did  
eliminate the garish magenta of Quad Black prints under incandescent  
lighting.  So, same old inks but new papers (nice) and a different  
way of mixing the inks to generate gray tones and control metamerism  
(partially).  As Tyler said, they should have made an effort to fix  
the metamerism problem by formulating new inks.  They didn't and  
their "shortcut" approach doesn't cut it - at least for me.

Carl

On May 7, 2005, at 2:45 AM, Kip Babington wrote:

> I was browsing the Inkjet Goodies site today and noticed that the  
> Lyson
> Darkroom glossy paper was one they offered.  I've used the Lyson Quad
> Black inks for several years in a Canon S9000 printer with so-so  
> results
> on Ilford Galerie Smooth Gloss and Smooth Pearl papers (results were
> better on the Lyson brand papers, but they're considerably more
> expensive than Ilford so I didn't use them much.)  I wondered if  
> the new
> Lyson papers might work better than the old with my inks, and wrote
> Inkjet Goodies to see if they had any info.  Here is the essence of
> their reply (which arrived about 20 minutes after I sent my inquiry  
> - I
> was very impressed.)
>
> I have spoken with Lyson about this to get a second opinion.  The
> daylight darkroom paper is again designed to work specifically with  
> the
> darkroom inks on the Epson 1280, 2000p, 2200, 4000 and 7600/9600 only.
> You are correct they are not going to expand that inkset to include
> Canon printers so it may not give you the quality you are looking  
> for by
> using that paper with the Quad Black inks.  Our Lyson distributor  
> has no
> idea if the Daylight Darkroom paper will work well without the
> corresponding inks, so it would be an experiment on your part to  
> try them.
> He did let me know that the formulation of the Quad Black inks and
> Daylight Darkroom are very different, and we would all like to know  
> your
> results if you decided to try.
>
> So according to Lyson this is not just the same old ink.  I don't have
> one of the specified Epson printers and don't plan to get one (I use
> mostly a C84/EZ setup now and am very pleased with the results on  
> matte
> paper) and decided not to see if the new papers worked with the Quad
> Black inks.  If I had more time and were still as interested in glossy
> prints as I used to be I might have taken on the experiment, but as it
> is I'll leave it to others.  I did see a post (maybe it was earlier in
> this thread) that someone had seen a sample print done by Lyson  
> with the
> full Daylight Darkroom process and thought it was outstanding.
>
> Cheers,
> Kip
>
> Tyler Boley wrote:
>
>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s...  
>> wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>> The Lysons are dye inks. But the metamerism you are seeing isn't  
>>> due to
>>> the dye inks. It's due, I think, to Lyson using a mixture of  
>>> color inks
>>> to make gray, instead of using a gray ink.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That's been the word all along. Few people now hearing about this
>> "new" darkroom series realize that it's the same darn ink I and many
>> tried years ago before there was even a Piezography product. We all
>> gave up on it back then because of metamerism despite great Wilhelm
>> ratings.
>> It's not at all the same
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>> It's a shame really. The Dmax performance of the Lyson dyes is
>>> outstanding. The Darkroom line of papers is also outstanding and it
>>> really only works well with dye inks...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It's a shame this stuff wasn't reformulated from the ground up years
>> ago, we could use this alternative to the art papers and pigment.
>> They've updated Fotonics, developed Cave Paints, but keep pushing  
>> this
>> stuff. Their only market will be the naive.
>>
>> Tyler
>>
>>
>>

It's always nice to get more information.  Thanks, Carl.  I think if I 
decided I needed glossy prints I'd be tempted to buy another C84 (I 
guess it's a C86 now) and set up another EZ ink machine.   Total cost 
would be under $100, and I could use the same bulk inks I now use in the 
C84 for all but the black position.

Cheers,
Kip

Carl Schofield wrote:

>It is my understanding that the Daylight Darkroom inks are a mix of  
>two old sets of inks - the quad blacks and the C, M, and Y from the  
>Small Gamut inkset (at lest that is what the beta testers reported  
>early in the game).   I've seen sample prints made with these inks on  
>Darkroom Gloss and although metamerism is much better controlled  
>compared to prints made with the straight quad blacks it was still  
>present in the form of a slight green cast in daylight.  They did  
>eliminate the garish magenta of Quad Black prints under incandescent  
>lighting.  So, same old inks but new papers (nice) and a different  
>way of mixing the inks to generate gray tones and control metamerism  
>(partially).  As Tyler said, they should have made an effort to fix  
>the metamerism problem by formulating new inks.  They didn't and  
>their "shortcut" approach doesn't cut it - at least for me.
>
>Carl
>  
>