Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Metering for Digital was....Digital vs scan for BW Print

Metering for Digital was....Digital vs scan for BW Print

2005-07-07 by John Vitollo

This is my second attempt to post this...sorry if there is a double post but 40 minutes have 
gone by and my post wasn't up.

There is an interesting thread over at the Adobe Camera Raw forums regarding how metering 
with digital is different than film. The gist of the info provided, by Jeff Schewe and Bruce 
Fraser, is using a spot meter and exposure to the right is the way to go since the last 1/5 of 
the histogram holds nearly half of all the recorded info. Basically expose for the highlights all 
the way to the right. But most digital cameras histograms are not that accurate...as it 
interprets a rendered jpeg file and leaves safe head room to hold highlight detail...meaning 
purposely underexposing. 

It's a long thread and the metering discussion begins at post #20

http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?7@...1heBscCKO.22@.
3bb6a869.3bbb1172/24

Re: [Digital BW] Metering for Digital was....Digital vs scan for BW Print

2005-07-07 by Scott McLoughlin

Could you elaborate a bit on "all the way to the right"? I'm close to 
following
you, but not quite there :-) Thanks!

Scott

John Vitollo wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> This is my second attempt to post this...sorry if there is a double 
> post but 40 minutes have
> gone by and my post wasn't up.
>
> There is an interesting thread over at the Adobe Camera Raw forums 
> regarding how metering
> with digital is different than film. The gist of the info provided, by 
> Jeff Schewe and Bruce
> Fraser, is using a spot meter and exposure to the right is the way to 
> go since the last 1/5 of
> the histogram holds nearly half of all the recorded info. Basically 
> expose for the highlights all
> the way to the right. But most digital cameras histograms are not that 
> accurate...as it
> interprets a rendered jpeg file and leaves safe head room to hold 
> highlight detail...meaning
> purposely underexposing.
>
> It's a long thread and the metering discussion begins at post #20
>
> http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?7@...1heBscCKO.22@.
> 3bb6a869.3bbb1172/24
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd 
> AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     * Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>" on
>       the web.
>     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>       DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: [Digital BW] Metering for Digital was....Digital vs scan for BW Print

2005-07-08 by John Vitollo

> Could you elaborate a bit on "all the way to the right"? I'm close to 
> following
> you, but not quite there :-) Thanks!
> Scott

It's best if I send you to the source.

Here's a post from the Adobe link: http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?
14@...2v9Dp0.31@.3bb6a869.3bbb1172/24:


Bruce Fraser wrote on - 4:16pm Jul 1, 05 PST (#28 of 125)	

"DSLRs don't have that highlight compression, and Zone V is way down around 50 or so on 
a 0-255 scale. Fully half the data the camera captures is devoted to describing the 
brightest f-stop the camera can record at the selected exposure/ISO settings. If you 
underexpose, and hence fail to populate that range with captured data, you're only 
capturing half the tones the camera can record, and you'll be fighting posterization and 
banding when you try to redistribute the captured data across the whole tonal range. 

You're always going to get better results with digital capture when you stretch the 
highlights, darkening the midtones and shadows, than you will by compressing the 
highlights and lightening the midtones and shadows, because the camera captures much 
more highlight detail than we can see, and much less shadow detail than we can see. 

Within limits, digital raw give you a huge degree of latitude in where you place the 
midtone, but those limits are imposed by where you set the highlight point. Everything 
hangs off the highlights, so the key decision you need to make when exposing for digital 
capture is where you want to set your highlight point. That's why I spot-meter on the 
highlights. 

The tone response of the sensor medium is the biggest and most confusing difference 
between film and digital. Film behaves approximately like eyeballs. Digital capture doesn't, 
not even vaguely. A useful exercise in trying to get your head around this—at least it 
helped me a lot, is to make a linear-gamma grayscale gradient, and watch what happens 
as you shove the bits around to try to make it approximately perceptually uniform. 

Digital isn't panchromatic either—it's way more sensitive to red and IR than it is to blue 
and UV—basically the opposite of film—but that's a much smaller issue than the difference 
between a perceptually-weighted response and a linear one." 

Here's another post from: http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?
14@...2v9Dp0.33@.3bb6a869.3bbb1172/35

Jeff Schewe wrote - 8:52am Jul 2, 05 PST (#42 of 125)		
"So what you really want to do is spot-meter the highlights, and expose for a middle gray 
that preserves the highlights. There are probably no lightmeters that will do that 
calculation for you." 

EXACTLY!!! 

Thank you for finding the exact words. . . 

Yes, the ideal would be to spot meter the highlights that you wish to have textural detail 
and expose to just get that texture without clipping. 

Because digital captures are linear, there is an incredible amount of detail in that brightest 
1 stop of a scene. Looking at the LCD on the back of the camera as a preview or even 
looking at the histogram (which tells you little that's useful) will not really tell you what is 
textural highlights vs specular highlights intended to clip. 

One of the reasons Thomas put in the curves function of Camera Raw 3.x was because he 
was convinced by several people (Bruce and Steve Johnson in particular) that there was so 
much data there in the highlights that only a custom curve function could allow 
reditribution or useful data and only in the linear stage, not after the image has been 
processed into a gamma encoding. 

Admitedly, this whole dicussion is about taking digital to the max-the flexibility of raw 
captures, the power of Camera Raw and processing in Photoshop allow SOOOO much 
control of the tone distribution of digital photography that I suspect many people will see 
this as a waste of time. And, to be honest, depending on what you are shooting and why, 
it could well be. 

But I thought it would be useful to try to explain exactly why digital capture ain't the same 
as film. . .particularly in the why optimum exposures are determined. 

 Also it's fun to remember my old college days and try to make some use of my old 
darkroom skills. 

" I remember a film rated at ASA 250 that responded admirably, but way too grainy, even 
in 4x5. " 

Royal Pan-X is what I think you remember and yes it was a wonderful film for contrast 
control as long as you were only making contact prints. The grain did look like boulders!"

RE: [Digital BW] Metering for Digital was....Digital vs scan for BW Print

2005-07-08 by Paul Roark

So far I've found the Canon XT sensor to be a lot like using slide film.
I'll be using a spot meter to be sure the highlights are in the range.  The
range seems to be +3 to -3 or -4.  

The shadows really depend on what you want to do with them and how much
noise you can tolerate.  If the values are going to be very low in the
print, the -4 is OK.  Below that the noise gets too high for me.  If I need
a good image below -3, I'll either bracket or find some other tricks to
capture the information.

By the way, the "window" in my old Pentax spot meter shows just -3 to +3
stops -- the very range that seems to be safe for the Canon sensor.

The longer version of the post:

> Here's a post from the Adobe link: http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-
> bin/webx?14@...2v9Dp0.31@.3bb6a869.3bbb1172/24:
 
> Bruce Fraser wrote: ...
> 
> "... If you underexpose, ... you're only
> capturing half the tones the camera can record, ...

Yes, and what I've found is that the quality of the image is probably better
in the top half than the bottom half of the light range.  On the other hand,
the noise in the shadows gets progressively worse as you go to far down.
So, the better image quality appears to be up out of the shadows. 

> Fraser continued: "Within limits, digital raw give you a huge degree 
>of latitude in where you place the
> midtone, but those limits are imposed by where you set the highlight
> point. ... so the key decision you need to make when
> exposing for digital capture is where you want to set your 
> highlight point. That's why I spot-meter on the highlights. ..."

And why I'll be doing the same thing.

This is really a lot like slide film.  It's not that complicated, except
that the highlight cut-off point may be more sudden.

In comparing to slides, my experience is that while they may look great when
projected on a screen (I'm showing my age here), when I'd try to pull more
information from the shadows, while there may have been something there, the
grain and image quality was terrible.

I've used ground glass over the lens and going up and down the scale
manually to explore how the sensor captures different light values.  I've
also take shots of resolution targets and printed paper in a controlled
setting to see how detail holds up in the highlights.  While the nature of
the target makes a difference, in general I don't think highlights over +3
are very useful.  They are mostly blown out, which is OK for spectral
highlights, but not if you need any detail out of them.

> 
> Bruce continued: "Digital isn't panchromatic either-it's way more 
> sensitive to red and IR than it is to blue ...."

Well, that may be true in the abstract, but it's not what I see in with the
Canon XT in my tests.  What I see is that, regardless of the native
sensitivity of the cmos sensor, Canon filters over the top of it have simply
made a compromise between daylight and tungsten lighting.  In outside shots,
reading from the left, dark side of the histogram, the RGB spikes of a
ground-glass, daylight, outside exposure are in that order -- R, G, and then
B being the brightest.  In an indoor, tungsten-light environment, the
histogram order is B, G and the R being the brightest.  The extent of
displacement or offset of the lines is about the same with both.  That is,
the extent to which they have to be moved by the raw processor to get
"white" (R=G=B) is about equal, but in the opposite direction when comparing
indoor and outdoor lighting.  Canon's decision in designing its filters
makes perfect sense to me.

Rick Murai wrote:
 
> Due to their obvious cutoff I've found that the ND grads don't offer
> seamless control of high values...

I agree.  I didn't use them when I shot slides, and I doubt I'll use them
with digital.  Many love them, but it's not my cup of tea.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.