Digital BW, The Print

I have read through the archives and emailed Roy about this but I am 
still looking to see if there's any more advice out there.  I have a 
4000 loaded with Museum Black, 3 carbon sepia piezotones and now 3 of 
the K7 inks.  Jon Cone suggested that I could split tone between the 
warm tones (shadows/midtones) and neutral (highlights) by using 
StudioPrint.  I am attempting to do that using QTR and am wondering 
what the best method is.

I thought I would use the Museum K, the 2 darker shades of carbon 
sepia, and the lightest shade of the K7 inks to build a quadtone 
curve.  Looking at the Ink Pattern Page (at 100% ink limit), the 
lightest K7 ink is much lighter than the lightest CS ink and has a 
more limited range.  The lightest K7 has L* of 86.2 at 100% and the 
lightest CS has L* = 58.4 at 100%.  K7 at 50% = 91.3 and the CS = 
72.9.  Now I am worried that the densities of the two lightest inks 
are too different to give me a smooth transition using K7 instead of 
CS.

Is there another way to do this using the toner curves?  Or maybe 
using more than 4 of the inks to build the curve?

Any advice would be appreciated.  I am fairly new to all of this so 
please keep your explanations as simple as possible!

Thanks,
Jenny

Jenny, 
Your numbers don't quite seem to make sense, but your point is
clear enough. When you do the partitioning, QTR will do what it
can to cover the range and make the transitions. Whether it is
smooth enough is really up to your eye. Remember that the 
curves that use K, and LK from the UC inkset have much worse
coverage of the whole range, and they still do very well. I think
you will work fine even if the densities are not optimal. The biggest
issue will be whether the hue of the different dilutions gives you 
a scale you like.

You can use the copy curves commands to play a lot of games.
For example you can use just one of the lightest grays in the
partitioning. Then copy its curve to the lightest gray of the
other set. You can balance the amount of each by the ink limits.
This will give you essentially a mixed ink so you can grade how
cool/warm teh highlights are.

The linearization will make the corrections to get you back to a
smooth curve. There is a lot of flexibility there. 

Costa

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" <jellerbe@j...> 
wrote:

> I have read through the archives and emailed Roy about this but I am 
> still looking to see if there's any more advice out there.  I have a 
> 4000 loaded with Museum Black, 3 carbon sepia piezotones and now 3 of 
> the K7 inks.  Jon Cone suggested that I could split tone between the 
> warm tones (shadows/midtones) and neutral (highlights) by using 
> StudioPrint.  I am attempting to do that using QTR and am wondering 
> what the best method is.
> 
> I thought I would use the Museum K, the 2 darker shades of carbon 
> sepia, and the lightest shade of the K7 inks to build a quadtone 
> curve.  Looking at the Ink Pattern Page (at 100% ink limit), the 
> lightest K7 ink is much lighter than the lightest CS ink and has a 
> more limited range.  The lightest K7 has L* of 86.2 at 100% and the 
> lightest CS has L* = 58.4 at 100%.  K7 at 50% = 91.3 and the CS = 
> 72.9.  Now I am worried that the densities of the two lightest inks 
> are too different to give me a smooth transition using K7 instead of 
> CS.
> 
> Is there another way to do this using the toner curves?  Or maybe 
> using more than 4 of the inks to build the curve?
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated.  I am fairly new to all of this so 
> please keep your explanations as simple as possible!
> 
> Thanks,
> Jenny

> 
> You can use the copy curves commands to play a lot of games.
> For example you can use just one of the lightest grays in the
> partitioning. Then copy its curve to the lightest gray of the
> other set. You can balance the amount of each by the ink limits.
> This will give you essentially a mixed ink so you can grade how
> cool/warm teh highlights are.
> 

Costa,

Thanks for the quick reply.  Your idea of copying the light curve and 
playing with the ink limits is something I hadn't thought of.

As soon as these inks dry, I will move on to the next steps and see 
how it goes.

Thanks again,
Jenny

Jenny,

I hope this does not sound too complicated. But there are ways of 
doing this with QTR.

If you want neutral highs, your pbservation is correct that using the 
lightest K7 ink may not be sufficient, as the overlap between the 
next density CS will dominate. So the best thing to try is to use the 
following inks: (1) Black, (2) Dark CS, (3) Medium CS, and (4) Medium 
K7, and (5) Light K7. When you create curves, make sure you set (4) 
to copy curve from (3). Now you should get a more seamless transition 
of hue from the high-mids to the highs.

Still another alternative is to use the follwing commbination of 
inks: (1) Black, (2) Dark CS, (3) Medium CS, and (4) Medium K7. My 
gut tell me this will work better from a hue perspective. When 
creating curves for this setup, make sure you type in a LOWER than 
true density for (4), and a HIGHER than true density for (3). This 
will force QTR to partition these inks in the split way you desire. 
The rest you will have to play with ink limits. You will have to 
REDUCE inks limits on (4) and INCREASE limits on (3)

Good luck. It can be done. I know, because I have done it with QTR on 
a 1280. The exact look, well that in your eyes, I hope you find it.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> I have read through the archives and emailed Roy about this but I 
am 
> still looking to see if there's any more advice out there.  I have 
a 
> 4000 loaded with Museum Black, 3 carbon sepia piezotones and now 3 
of 
> the K7 inks.  Jon Cone suggested that I could split tone between 
the 
> warm tones (shadows/midtones) and neutral (highlights) by using 
> StudioPrint.  I am attempting to do that using QTR and am wondering 
> what the best method is.
> 
> I thought I would use the Museum K, the 2 darker shades of carbon 
> sepia, and the lightest shade of the K7 inks to build a quadtone 
> curve.  Looking at the Ink Pattern Page (at 100% ink limit), the 
> lightest K7 ink is much lighter than the lightest CS ink and has a 
> more limited range.  The lightest K7 has L* of 86.2 at 100% and the 
> lightest CS has L* = 58.4 at 100%.  K7 at 50% = 91.3 and the CS = 
> 72.9.  Now I am worried that the densities of the two lightest inks 
> are too different to give me a smooth transition using K7 instead 
of 

> CS.
> 
> Is there another way to do this using the toner curves?  Or maybe 
> using more than 4 of the inks to build the curve?
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated.  I am fairly new to all of this so 
> please keep your explanations as simple as possible!
> 
> Thanks,
> Jenny

> Still another alternative is to use the follwing commbination of 
> inks: (1) Black, (2) Dark CS, (3) Medium CS, and (4) Medium K7. My 
> gut tell me this will work better from a hue perspective. When 
> creating curves for this setup, make sure you type in a LOWER than 
> true density for (4), and a HIGHER than true density for (3). This 
> will force QTR to partition these inks in the split way you 
desire. 
> The rest you will have to play with ink limits. You will have to 
> REDUCE inks limits on (4) and INCREASE limits on (3)
> 
> Shilesh
> 


Shilesh,

I understood the first alternative - thanks for explaining it so 
well.  But in the second one, are you saying I wouldn't use the 
light ink at all?  Just checking to make sure.

Jenny

Jenny,

Yes, in the second option you would not use the light ink at all. I 
am just afraid that in the first option, you will not see much of the 
neutral tone you are after in the highs. You will have to be the 
judge of that. But my guess (just a guess) is that if the light ink 
is used in the last 10% of the density ramp, the next dark gray 
(medium CS, in your arrangment) overlaps a few % with that, than the 
CS will dominate all the way to the very last few % before paper 
white. You can push the overlap region further up the scale, but then 
you will not have enough density in the light ink to carry the tones.

The second option is not bad at all. With quad set-up (black + 4 
grays), you have more lattitude in the high ends. I have never used 
in PiezoTone or PiezoGraphy inks, but I am aware that MIS FS inks are 
similar in density. These are the inks I use. I can tell you, the 
light ink is rather superfluous. A very discriminating viewer with a 
loupe might disagree with me. As an example consider QTR users of 
Epson OEM inks. The "warm" tone prints are made with just 2 inks, the 
black and the light black (2200, 4000, 7600, 9600 printers). The 
kicker is that the density of the light black OEM ink is in the 35-
40% range. The light ink of PiezoTone, or MIS FS inks is ~5%.

Does this make sense? If you already have the inks loaded, you could 
just try and see how it works out. Good luck. Let us know if you are 
sucessful.

Shilesh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> > Still another alternative is to use the follwing commbination of 
> > inks: (1) Black, (2) Dark CS, (3) Medium CS, and (4) Medium K7. 
My 
> > gut tell me this will work better from a hue perspective. When 
> > creating curves for this setup, make sure you type in a LOWER 
than 
> > true density for (4), and a HIGHER than true density for (3). 
This 

> > will force QTR to partition these inks in the split way you 
> desire. 
> > The rest you will have to play with ink limits. You will have to 
> > REDUCE inks limits on (4) and INCREASE limits on (3)
> > 
> > Shilesh
> > 
> 
> 
> Shilesh,
> 
> I understood the first alternative - thanks for explaining it so 
> well.  But in the second one, are you saying I wouldn't use the 
> light ink at all?  Just checking to make sure.
> 
> Jenny

Shilesh,

I just wanted to let you know that I have my first set of prints 
done with my new piezo carbon sepia/K7 inkset.  After trying all the 
options given me here, I ended up using the 1) Museum K, 2) Dark 
carbon sepia, 3) Medium carbon sepia, and 4) light K7 blended with 
the light carbon sepia (blended using the copy curve and adjusting 
the ink limits).  I think it's possible I could have gotten good 
results with any of the methods. I did try them all initially but 
ended up going with this formula. 

The prints with this combo are still very much warm toned prints but 
are more "brown" than "red" and the highlights are very white (as 
white as they can be on photo rag).  The step wedge is smooth and I 
don't see any problems in the transition areas (with my untrained 
eye).  I am really happy with the prints but will probably fiddle 
with them a bit more just to make sure I haven't overlooked some 
minor tweaking I could do.

Also, I did a "neutral" curve using the Museum black and the 3 K7 
inks and it is far from neutral.  It is a very cold print even when 
compared to the sample K7 print I got from Inkjetmall.  Either there 
is something wrong with my curve (very possible although I don't 
have any inks loaded but the carbon sepia and K7, nothing to cool 
the tone) or the other 3 shades of K7 that I don't have influence 
the tone in some way.  I am guessing that I can blend the carbon 
sepia curve with the "neutral" curve and actually get something 
neutral.  I just haven't had time to try it yet.

Thanks to you (and everyone else here) for helping me figure this 
out.

Jenny

Jenny,

I am glad to hear of your success. I would be interested in seeing 
the results from your set-up. You may want to consider signing up 
with one of Tom O'Connell's monthly print exchanges.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> Shilesh,
> 
> I just wanted to let you know that I have my first set of prints 
> done with my new piezo carbon sepia/K7 inkset.  After trying all 
the 
> options given me here, I ended up using the 1) Museum K, 2) Dark 
> carbon sepia, 3) Medium carbon sepia, and 4) light K7 blended with 
> the light carbon sepia (blended using the copy curve and adjusting 
> the ink limits).  I think it's possible I could have gotten good 
> results with any of the methods. I did try them all initially but 
> ended up going with this formula. 
> 
> The prints with this combo are still very much warm toned prints 
but 
> are more "brown" than "red" and the highlights are very white (as 
> white as they can be on photo rag).  The step wedge is smooth and I 
> don't see any problems in the transition areas (with my untrained 
> eye).  I am really happy with the prints but will probably fiddle 
> with them a bit more just to make sure I haven't overlooked some 
> minor tweaking I could do.
> 
> Also, I did a "neutral" curve using the Museum black and the 3 K7 
> inks and it is far from neutral.  It is a very cold print even when 
> compared to the sample K7 print I got from Inkjetmall.  Either 
there 

> is something wrong with my curve (very possible although I don't 
> have any inks loaded but the carbon sepia and K7, nothing to cool 
> the tone) or the other 3 shades of K7 that I don't have influence 
> the tone in some way.  I am guessing that I can blend the carbon 
> sepia curve with the "neutral" curve and actually get something 
> neutral.  I just haven't had time to try it yet.
> 
> Thanks to you (and everyone else here) for helping me figure this 
> out.
> 
> Jenny