Digital BW, The Print

Having just read about the new K7 inks from Cone Editions, I am really excited about them 
and eager to see samples.  Has anyone out there tried them?

Has anyone tried Media Street G Quads?  I have fade tested some samples and they did 
extremely well, though I am not as excited about the tone configuration as I am about the 
Cone K7.

Any feedback, anecdotes, experiences or impressions would be welcome.

Joel Pickford

http://www.joelpickford.com/

Hi Joel,

I received a sample of the K7 inks. (on innova photo smooth cotton)
Very, very smooth output - the most photographic look
I've ever seen from inkjet.

The tone is very consistent from lights to shadows - and very neutral.
(Lab 50.0, 0.4, 1.2 and Lab 80.0, 0.7, 0.6)

The black looks relatively week to me (L 17,2),  about the
same as with Museum black .

It's hard to judge from a single print but for my taste
it might be too neutral for me - I like (very)slightly warm shadows.

All in all I think it is a very good product but I am still undecided
whether  to use it. I am tempted by the Epson K3 inks. (color and bw
from one printer)
What do you think about the new Epson inks?

Andreas

> What do you think about the new Epson inks?
> 
> Andreas

Thanks for your reply, Andreas.  I recently had some test prints done on UC K3 and they 
look pretty good.  The tests were on Hahnemuhle PR using Epson's profile for Velvet Fine 
Art.  The D-MAX would have been better if a profile had been made for the Hahn PR, but 
the results were not bad overall.

I would say that they have eliminated about 97 percent of the Metamerism, leaving just a 
hint of it.  A good profile done with a Gretag might get rid of the rest (but I won't know 
until I try it).

The highlights are also smoother and more "dotless," like Cone prints.

The only reservation I have from an artistic standpoint is that they still look like B&W prints 
made from color.  UC K3 has an almost identical look and feel to the old UC, except with 
more dotless highlights and most of the metamerism gone.  K3 will be a very useful and 
practical ink set.  You will be able to tone it as you like in PhotoShop, but it won't have that 
lucious, tactile quality of a good print made from monochrome inks.  In fine art 
photographic printmaking, those seemingly minor subtlties make all the difference in the 
world between a compent, perfunctory print and one that lives and breathes.

Therefore I will probably go the following route over the next few months:  Convert my 
7600 to Cone K7 inks and also purchase a 7800 printer.  Then I will have the best of all 
worlds: the ultimate digital monochrome print (K7), infinitely toneable B&W printmaking 
(UC K3), and superb color prints (for my current Hmong Refugee documentary project- see 
my website for details).

Joel Pickford
http://www.joelpickford.com/

I don't know what you are doing with the Ultrachrome K2 and K3 inksets
but if you are seeing metamerism you are not printing out of greyscale
mode and using a rip like you should be. If you were doing this you
would not be seeing noticebale metamerism with K2 or K3. If you are
printing out of the Epson driver there is no comparing that to
anything decent, either tones or neutral. And, I certainly wouldn't be
doing my toning in Photoshop RGB that is a sad way to go.

John

 
> The highlights are also smoother and more "dotless," like Cone prints.
> 
> The only reservation I have from an artistic standpoint is that they
still look like B&W prints 
> made from color.  UC K3 has an almost identical look and feel to the
old UC, except with 
> more dotless highlights and most of the metamerism gone.  K3 will be
a very useful and 
> practical ink set.  You will be able to tone it as you like in
PhotoShop, but it won't have that 
> lucious, tactile quality of a good print made from monochrome inks.
 In fine art 

> 
> Joel Pickford
> http://www.joelpickford.com/

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Joel isn't a newbie at this John. In my estimation, he's got a damn good 
eye, and he's quite an experienced digital printer. If he says he sees 
metamerism, I believe him.

I know that many prints I've seen that tried to use color inks to make 
monochrome images exhibited metamerism. Probably all did, but galleries 
are curiously uncooperative when you want to take prints off their walls 
and walk out to the street to see how the print looks in sunlight ;-).

The monochrome-from-color prints that were well lit also showed some 
color -- I'm particularly annoyed by the way the color seems to shift 
back and forth as the print's tones go from dark to light. The closer to 
neutral people try to print with color inks, the more color seems to 
show. Those people trying for warm toned "digital platinum" looks tend 
to be more successful with color inks in my book.

For context, I see some metamerism and color shifting in the MIS 
variable tone inksets, and just a bit of metamerism (but no color 
shifting) in the Piezotones as well. I attribute this to the way inkjet 
print work - the way some tones get close to full coverage over the 
substrate, while other tones let more of the substrate color show 
through. I'm hopeful that the K7 inkset will really minimize this, but 
I'm not in a position to test it now, so I'm in wait-and-see mode.
--
Bruce Watson


john dean wrote:

> I don't know what you are doing with the Ultrachrome K2 and K3 inksets
> but if you are seeing metamerism you are not printing out of greyscale
> mode and using a rip like you should be. If you were doing this you
> would not be seeing noticebale metamerism with K2 or K3. If you are
> printing out of the Epson driver there is no comparing that to
> anything decent, either tones or neutral. And, I certainly wouldn't be
> doing my toning in Photoshop RGB that is a sad way to go.
>
> John
>
>
> > The highlights are also smoother and more "dotless," like Cone prints.
> >
> > The only reservation I have from an artistic standpoint is that they
> still look like B&W prints
> > made from color.  UC K3 has an almost identical look and feel to the
> old UC, except with
> > more dotless highlights and most of the metamerism gone.  K3 will be
> a very useful and
> > practical ink set.  You will be able to tone it as you like in
> PhotoShop, but it won't have that
> > lucious, tactile quality of a good print made from monochrome inks.
> In fine art
> >
> > Joel Pickford
> > http://www.joelpickford.com/
>
>
>
>
>

Hello Bruce,

>If he says he sees metamerism, I believe him.

I can vouch for that.  K3 is far better than UC, but there is still a
tiny bit of metamerism.  I can see slight changes under different
lighting, but it's miniscule compared to UC.  Note that this statement
applies only to certain settings.  I've found that some combinations
of ABW and paper type have more obvious coloration and metamerism, and
others minimize it almost to nonexistence.  So it varies.


>The monochrome-from-color prints that were well lit also showed 
>some color -- I'm particularly annoyed by the way the color seems 
>to shift back and forth as the print's tones go from dark to light. 

That's been my experience too.  I've never liked the color ink
approach, so it was with trepidation that I got the 2400.  I figured
I'd turn it into an Eboni/QTR machine ASAP.  My initial trials were
affirming that, but I've discovered there are some settings that
reduce the effect to barely noticeable.  You have to look for it.


>I'm hopeful that the K7 inkset will really minimize this, but 
>I'm not in a position to test it now, so I'm in wait-and-see mode.

I'm also very interested in hearing K7 reports.  I'm finding the 2400
to be better than I thought it would be (at least for the time being I
can make prints I can live with), but am still very uneasy about
having color inks in there, especially yellow, for longevity reasons.
I just don't like the idea.  And I'm also unsure how putting Eboni in
it is going to affect things.  I also have a working QTR-BO curve, so
am working that angle as well.  

Cone hasn't advertised K7 as being pure carbon, just pure pigment, so
I'm guessing there is some sort of cool toner in there.  So it's
probably still true that Eboni BO is the only pure carbon solution
that can create a range of cold to warm tones without any color ink. 
They've all got colors in some form or another.  So the jury is still
out for me too.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>

>  And I'm also unsure how putting Eboni in
> it is going to affect things.

You will find about a 10% boost in dMax on fine art papers like HPR or
Permajet Alpha.  It is ever so slightly weaker (only by measurement) on
EEM/EAM.  It will affect the tonality of the AB&W settings and also the
linearity of the AB&W greyscale, although you are best to manage the latter
with a QTR ICC profile anyway.  The choice of K influences tonality quite a
lot because the LK and LLK are very light inks.  For example, take a look at
QTR partition points for 3K with Eboni in the K slot.  With the 4800 on EEM
if you limit Eboni K at 70%, LK is 23% K and LLK is just 8% K.


>I also have a working QTR-BO curve, so
> am working that angle as well.

Again I encourage you to not just linearize the QTR curve but to also go
ahead and profile the linearized greyscale ramp with a QTR ICC profile.  It
helps an enormous amount.
> 
> Cone hasn't advertised K7 as being pure carbon, just pure pigment, so
> I'm guessing there is some sort of cool toner in there.

There has to be if it is going to "neutral" on HPR.  In fact, it would need
a toner comprising rather large amounts of LC,C, LM and M - and not in equal
proportions.

>So it's
> probably still true that Eboni BO is the only pure carbon solution
> that can create a range of cold to warm tones without any color ink.

But only to the extent the paper is coloured.

> They've all got colors in some form or another.

Yes and so have the papers.

Hello Steve,

>>And I'm also unsure how putting Eboni in
>>it is going to affect things.
> 
>You will find about a 10% boost in dMax on fine art papers...

Ok, thanks.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm