Digital BW, The Print

Hello All,

Since trying 2K on the 2400 lot's of thoughts and impressions from
the past few months have come in focus about this technique.

2K printing seems to be an excellent compromise between BO and full
ink (FI) techniques.  It is just slightly lower in luminance and dmax
than BO, but significantly better than FI.  Is also much smoother than
BO, slightly less than FI, and retains a bit of the crisp edge that
BO users love.  I think this will be an excellent approach if
certain details can be worked out.

The big challenge is the color of the LK.  The holy grail for me has
been an LK that would respond like Eboni to different papers, but no
LK so far has Eboni's coolness or it's color response (Eboni became
warm when diluted), so the LK has to be toned (Drat! Those pesky
color inks again).  Various mixtures of MIS inks have been tried by
Steve Karafyllakis, Carl Schofield and others, with similar results: a
formula that looks great on one paper is poor on another.  So it looks
like a different mix will be needed for each paper.  Mixing inks (time
consuming and expensive) would be great for someone using one or two
papers, but I regularly use five or six and am often trying something
new.  So it looks like it's going to be color curves.

My first 2K experiments with the 2400 and K3 inks look promising and
I'm going to continue down this path for awhile.  Looking forward to
getting some Eboni in it.  Since it's cooler to begin with, it
probably will require less toners to control it.  Unless some new ink
technology emerges, it looks like there's no escaping color inks if
you want smoother prints than BO delivers.

Steve Karafyllakis is currently using a single LK mixture and blending
in color inks with secondary curves to adjust for different papers. 
He's getting some outstanding results with this approach.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton Jones wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> [SNIP]
>
> Steve Karafyllakis is currently using a single LK mixture and blending
> in color inks with secondary curves to adjust for different papers.
> He's getting some outstanding results with this approach.
>
>
I know it's not a design parameter, but how about an Eboni + Epson LK + 
required toning
2K scenario - to allow for a "reasonable" automagic (Epson profile) 
color printing ink set -
and hopefully a very satisfactory 2K B&W inkset as well.

Could work pretty similarly on 2200 and 2400 class machines. With QTR 
and lots of nice
canned paper profiles, could account for quite a bit of  B&W printing 
action.

Scott

Now that I think of it, isn't this 2K scenario similar to what
the QTR profiles are doing now with the 2200 curves?

Scott

Scott McLoughlin wrote:

>
>
> Clayton Jones wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > [SNIP]
> >
> > Steve Karafyllakis is currently using a single LK mixture and blending
> > in color inks with secondary curves to adjust for different papers.
> > He's getting some outstanding results with this approach.
> >
> >
> I know it's not a design parameter, but how about an Eboni + Epson LK +
> required toning
> 2K scenario - to allow for a "reasonable" automagic (Epson profile)
> color printing ink set -
> and hopefully a very satisfactory 2K B&W inkset as well.
>
> Could work pretty similarly on 2200 and 2400 class machines. With QTR
> and lots of nice
> canned paper profiles, could account for quite a bit of B&W printing
> action.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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Yep, you're absolutely right Scott. In my case the only difference 
is that Eboni and neutral LK gives me an almost no-color component 
neutral print on my main paper (I'm calibrating for H-Photorag) and 
miniscule amounts of color to balance for other papers in the 
neutral category. Of course that means that when I want sepia, I use 
a lot more color ink than before, but that suits me fine as I do 
much more neutral printing.

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Scott 
McLoughlin <scott@a...> wrote:
> Now that I think of it, isn't this 2K scenario similar to what
> the QTR profiles are doing now with the 2200 curves?
> 
> Scott
> 
> Scott McLoughlin wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Clayton Jones wrote:
> >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > [SNIP]
> > >
> > > Steve Karafyllakis is currently using a single LK mixture and 
blending
> > > in color inks with secondary curves to adjust for different 
papers.
> > > He's getting some outstanding results with this approach.
> > >
> > >
> > I know it's not a design parameter, but how about an Eboni + 
Epson LK +
> > required toning
> > 2K scenario - to allow for a "reasonable" automagic (Epson 
profile)
> > color printing ink set -
> > and hopefully a very satisfactory 2K B&W inkset as well.
> >
> > Could work pretty similarly on 2200 and 2400 class machines. 
With QTR
> > and lots of nice
> > canned paper profiles, could account for quite a bit of B&W 
printing
> > action.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish 
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting 
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to 
> > keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
removed from 
> > the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital 
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and 
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group 
> > Owner and Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in 
the 
> > Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE 
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?
OWNER? 
> > AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT 
BE 
> > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED 
TO, 
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE 
> > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT 
> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
DAMAGES), 
> > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL 
BW, 
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION 
OF 
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD 
> > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER 
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Digital photography technique 
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Digital+photography+technique&w1=Digital+photography+technique
&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Photography+school&w4=Professional+digital
+photography&w5=Stock+photography&c=5&s=145&.sig=hJsrVba0gCEH_EJWeAPg
Gg> 
> > 	Digital photography 
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
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l+photography&w3=Photography+school&w4=Professional+digital+photograp
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> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
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+photography&w3=Photography+school&w4=Professional+digital+photograph
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t=ms&k=Professional+digital+photography&w1=Digital+photography+techni
que&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Photography+school&w4=Professional+digi
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Dbu5A> 
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t=ms&k=Stock+photography&w1=Digital+photography+technique&w2=Digital+
photography&w3=Photography+school&w4=Professional+digital+photography
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Hello Scott,

>I know it's not a design parameter, but how about an Eboni + Epson 
>LK + required toning 

That's pretty much where Steve is headed, but with the LK mixed to be
cooled already to desired tone on one paper.


>Now that I think of it, isn't this 2K scenario similar to what
>the QTR profiles are doing now with the 2200 curves?

Yes, it's looking that way.  The original 2K idea was to have a
smoother BO, just 2 blacks and no color inks.  It works great for
smoothness but is very warm.  The problem has been the lack of an LK
that matches Eboni's coolness and color response.  Even Eboni got warm
when diluted to LK density.  

So next we resorted to cooling the LK with colors, first trying some
already cooled LK versions (such as UT7) and then with other things
added.  This blows away the black only idea, but at least there are no
multicolor dots.  This works fine except that a color mixture that
looks good on one paper is poor on another.  So now its down to either
a custom mixture for each paper or else various toning methods using
curves.

Steve Karafyllakis is using a mixed LK and for adjusting to different
papers is blending in a second curve that pulls in color inks, but of
course that introduces color dots.  So in spite of all the effort its
coming down to variations on the same theme.

As for the 2400, the latest QTR version talks to it but there were no
2400 curves in the package, so I'm making some.  I've also noticed
that the QTR-2K-2400 prints look different than those from the 2200. 
The 2400 dots look coarser, like clumps, rather than the fine dots of
the 2200.  That also the same problem I found with the QTR-BO
attempts, the results are coarse compaed to the 2200.

I'm wondering if there's something about the dither algorithms that
QTR uses that for some reason don't work well with this machine.  They
look much better on the 2200.  I'd like to hear reports from others
who have tried both.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

> 
> As for the 2400, the latest QTR version talks to it but there were no
> 2400 curves in the package, so I'm making some.  I've also noticed
> that the QTR-2K-2400 prints look different than those from the 2200. 
> The 2400 dots look coarser, like clumps, rather than the fine dots of
> the 2200.  That also the same problem I found with the QTR-BO
> attempts, the results are coarse compaed to the 2200.
> 
> I'm wondering if there's something about the dither algorithms that
> QTR uses that for some reason don't work well with this machine.  They
> look much better on the 2200.  I'd like to hear reports from others
> who have tried both.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 

Clayton,

The first attempt at the R2400 was before I had one, seen one or had
any docs for it.   Anyway since I got one recently there will be an update
for some of the internal calibration -- dotsizes.  This should make things
better.  I'd be surprised if the results weren't pretty close to the 2200 as
far as dithering etc.

Roy

Hello Roy,

>The first attempt at the R2400 was before I had one, seen one or had
>any docs for it.   Anyway since I got one recently there will be an 
>update for some of the internal calibration -- dotsizes.  This
should 
>make things better.  I'd be surprised if the results weren't pretty 
>close to the 2200 as far as dithering etc.

Sounds great, glad to hear it.  Do you get similar results as I
describe?  If not I can send you some comparison prints if that will
help.


Regards,
Clayton

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> 
wrote:
> Hello Roy,
> 
> >The first attempt at the R2400 was before I had one, seen one or had
> >any docs for it.   Anyway since I got one recently there will be an 
> >update for some of the internal calibration -- dotsizes.  This
> should 
> >make things better.  I'd be surprised if the results weren't pretty 
> >close to the 2200 as far as dithering etc.
> 
> Sounds great, glad to hear it.  Do you get similar results as I
> describe?  If not I can send you some comparison prints if that will
> help.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

Hi Clayton,

It's always to hard to describe things well enough to compare.  If you can
scan some small sections to make sure I know what you mean that may be
useful.

Roy