Digital BW, The Print

Just got my new spongeless carts from MIS with the UT-FSN inkset... 
having forgotten how stupidly frustrating the old VM inkset was with 
the CFS... now, after installing the carts and ten cleaning cycles and 
bad and changing nozzle test patterns it is all coming back to me... 
any tricks to getting these stupid things to work?  God, the HP system, 
for all its flaws was brilliantly reliable.  Help please!  I'm trying 
to get my 1160 running again... and really want to make b&w pigment 
prints.  Since my 1160 has only seen light service for the last year 
printing occasional color prints for my 10 year with absolutely zero 
problems shooting dye I assume the printer is good.

thanks for any help!

mark

Mark,
your struggles are familiar (with 1160,1270,1290 printers). AFAIK it
is really important not to do more than 3 clean cycles without 
stopping for a rest (for the printer) and (very important) then do a
small print
(purge pattern). 
The "cleans" are not all the same (short, medium and long), and I
think the pattern requires to be reset after a set of 3 to work well. 
Look for the cause of the problem - if a couple of sets of cleans do
not fix it. There are many resources with advice (the old mwords.co.uk
pages, MIS, etc. etc.), but thoughtful diagnosis is the best way to a
cure.

Ken

Thanks... I guess I know all that... but I want to throw my printer out 
the window at this point!  I have a feeling that the carts are all 
defective.  The poppet is really, really touchy in the black and that 
is the worst (really had to wiggle the adapter around to get it to open 
up for the priming step)... think one or two of the "color" set were 
also weird.  Off to a great start!  Between the ink, carts and paper 
order I have a feeling I just wasted $200 for nothing but a few nights 
frustration :(  I also have a clean CFS that I can use if these 
spongeless carts are really so terrible... first try I have 3 channels 
bad... makes it seem statisically unlikely that I would ever be able to 
get a color cart in which all three channels worked :(

... the optimistic in me wanted to believe that with the new carts and 
inksets that the system would actually work as advertised... at least I 
wasn't so optimistic that I bought a new 1280 strictly for MIS inks and 
everything to go with it... (I was close, but then figured I try out 
the 1160 before spending $500 on the 1280 setup... the price of a wide 
carriage HP or a good down payment on a R2400!).

I've reprimed the carts 3 times.  I've printed purge patterns until 
they were all gray.  I've done more cleaning cycles than I should have 
and the patterns change every time.  The printer was giving perfect 
patterns with epson dye the minute before the installation of the MIS 
spongeless carts.  Am I missing something?

Thanks,

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kenstrain2000" 
<kenstrain2000@y...> wrote:

> Mark,
> your struggles are familiar (with 1160,1270,1290 printers). AFAIK it
> is really important not to do more than 3 clean cycles without 
> stopping for a rest (for the printer) and (very important) then do a
> small print
> (purge pattern). 
> The "cleans" are not all the same (short, medium and long), and I
> think the pattern requires to be reset after a set of 3 to work well. 
> Look for the cause of the problem - if a couple of sets of cleans do
> not fix it. There are many resources with advice (the old mwords.co.uk
> pages, MIS, etc. etc.), but thoughtful diagnosis is the best way to a
> cure.
> 
> Ken

After wrestling with a MIS CFS on my 1280 without ever getting
reliable prints, I stuffed it in a drawer...I then saw the new clear
carts and thought they looked great (and I had all of that ink left
over).  However, I have cleaned, purged, and printed until I am ready
to be fitted for restraints, and it simply will not print a complete
image without dropping nozzles.

I finally gave up and switched back to color dye.  Perfect nozzle
checks immediately, and no issues.

I wonder if significant prior use with the color dye somehow makes the
printer unsuitable for pigments; maybe it's not possible to completely
remove all of the dried dye (if the prior owner let it sit - I bought
it used).  I've heard others have good results if they started new
printers with the pigments.  I have tried every cleaning trick I could
track down, including filling extra clear carts with a mix of
distilled water and ammonia.  Nothing worked in the long term.

I'd love to try the new UT7/Pro inks in my 2200, but I'm afraid of
messing it up and then being unable to sell it.

Eric

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> Thanks... I guess I know all that... but I want to throw my printer
out 
> the window at this point!  I have a feeling that the carts are all 
> defective.  The poppet is really, really touchy in the black and
that 
> is the worst (really had to wiggle the adapter around to get it to
open 
> up for the priming step)... think one or two of the "color" set
were 
> also weird.  Off to a great start!  Between the ink, carts and
paper 
> order I have a feeling I just wasted $200 for nothing but a few
nights 
> frustration :(  I also have a clean CFS that I can use if these 
> spongeless carts are really so terrible... first try I have 3
channels 
> bad... makes it seem statisically unlikely that I would ever be
able to 
> get a color cart in which all three channels worked :(
> 
> ... the optimistic in me wanted to believe that with the new carts
and 
> inksets that the system would actually work as advertised... at
least I 
> wasn't so optimistic that I bought a new 1280 strictly for MIS inks
and 
> everything to go with it... (I was close, but then figured I try
out 
> the 1160 before spending $500 on the 1280 setup... the price of a
wide 
> carriage HP or a good down payment on a R2400!).
> 
> I've reprimed the carts 3 times.  I've printed purge patterns until 
> they were all gray.  I've done more cleaning cycles than I should
have 
> and the patterns change every time.  The printer was giving perfect 
> patterns with epson dye the minute before the installation of the
MIS 
> spongeless carts.  Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> mark
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"kenstrain2000" 
> <kenstrain2000@y...> wrote:
> > Mark,
> > your struggles are familiar (with 1160,1270,1290 printers). AFAIK
it
> > is really important not to do more than 3 clean cycles without 
> > stopping for a rest (for the printer) and (very important) then
do a
> > small print
> > (purge pattern). 
> > The "cleans" are not all the same (short, medium and long), and I
> > think the pattern requires to be reset after a set of 3 to work
well. 
> > Look for the cause of the problem - if a couple of sets of cleans
do
> > not fix it. There are many resources with advice (the old
mwords.co.uk
> > pages, MIS, etc. etc.), but thoughtful diagnosis is the best way
to a

> > cure.
> > 
> > Ken

> ... The poppet is really, really touchy in the black and that
> is the worst (really had to wiggle the adapter around to get it to open
> up for the priming step)...

I have modified the bottom fill adapter for priming these carts and dealing
with 7600 carts.  See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Mod_Bot_Fill.jpg  All it
takes is a few minutes and a file.  Be sure to clean off all the shavings.

(I've never used the 1160 clear carts.)

 
> The printer was giving perfect patterns with epson dye ...

Dye is lower viscosity and can get through screens in the head that may be
sufficiently clogged that pigments can't get through them.  My 7600
(dampers) reached that point, and letting it sit with MIS cleaning fluid in
it for 2 weeks did the trick.  I did a cleaning cycle about once a day or
printed a purge pattern.  It has worked well ever since.  Note that the
cleaning fluid is the clear UC base diluted 1:1 with water to lower the
viscosity so that the fluid can get through the tight spots.


> I wonder if significant prior use with the color dye somehow makes 
> the printer unsuitable for pigments; ...

Aside from the above, Eboni is not compatible with dye.  I found on a used
1280 that I had to clean the parking pads thoroughly to get the dye off
them.  Otherwise the machine would pick up enough residual dye from the pad
to cause problems.  Clumps of pigs appeared to get stuck on the surface of
the head.  I also had to clean that with a Windex-soaked paper towel strip
or cloth bias tape.

In general, I think printers made for pigments are more reliable with pigs
than are printers made for dyes.  I have been told that it was just the
rather constant preventative cleaning cycles that differentiated the 7500
(pigment printer) from the 7000 (dye printer).  However, I have no idea what
Epson may have done in printers that are built from the ground up for
pigments.  Also, used printers that work with dyes may have screens in the
heads that are just too clogged to work well with pigments.  There is a
difference in viscosity that can, obviously, be significant.

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I think we all struggle to understand why some of the older Epsons
work well with pigment while others of the same model don't. I've had
great luck with 1280's printing with MIS pigments for years. And
that's several different 1280's plus an old 890. I'm currently using
the spongless carts and pigments in my current 1280 and it's almost
bulletproof. 

What few problems I have had have been solved by repriming the cart.
That does seem to be critical. 

I suspect, that at $5 retail, the production tolerances on the
spongeless carts is low. I'd just try a new set of carts instead of
pulling your hair out. 

Have you put dye ink carts back in there and see if that solves the
problem? I suggest the MIS $5 Chinese dye ink carts. They work well
for the price. Spend $10 at MIS and buy two of those. And tell them
your problems with the spongeless carts and ask them to throw two of
those in the box. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:

> Thanks... I guess I know all that... but I want to throw my printer out 
> the window at this point!  I have a feeling that the carts are all 
> defective.  The poppet is really, really touchy in the black and that 
> is the worst (really had to wiggle the adapter around to get it to open 
> up for the priming step)... think one or two of the "color" set were 
> also weird.  Off to a great start!  Between the ink, carts and paper 
> order I have a feeling I just wasted $200 for nothing but a few nights 
> frustration :(  I also have a clean CFS that I can use if these 
> spongeless carts are really so terrible... first try I have 3 channels 
> bad... makes it seem statisically unlikely that I would ever be able to 
> get a color cart in which all three channels worked :(
> 
> ... the optimistic in me wanted to believe that with the new carts and 
> inksets that the system would actually work as advertised... at least I 
> wasn't so optimistic that I bought a new 1280 strictly for MIS inks and 
> everything to go with it... (I was close, but then figured I try out 
> the 1160 before spending $500 on the 1280 setup... the price of a wide 
> carriage HP or a good down payment on a R2400!).
> 
> I've reprimed the carts 3 times.  I've printed purge patterns until 
> they were all gray.  I've done more cleaning cycles than I should have 
> and the patterns change every time.  The printer was giving perfect 
> patterns with epson dye the minute before the installation of the MIS 
> spongeless carts.  Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> mark