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affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-15 by Allan Chen

Hi all,
     This isn't strictly B&W related, but there's a lot of expertise 
here so...
     We have an Epson 9600 in our general public (not printing/graphics 
oriented) lab.  We've been feeding EEM through it so far, as it meets 
the rather pedestrian needs of our main user group.  However, we'd like 
to start offering something archival, as we want to market to some fine 
art folks.
     Do you have any suggestions as to an alternative to EEM that is 
relatively affordable (EEM is about $110 per 100' roll, so somethign in 
the $175 range is probably the highest we could consider, in all 
reality)?  GSM isn't an issue (EEM hasn't seem to light weight to our 
users so far).  Paper brightness is, though, as I don't know if our 
users will understand the conflicting issues of brightness and archival 
quality.  Is there anything that would come close?
     I'm just not familiar enough with the wide-format paper options out 
there to really know, especially once you throw in the price factor (the 
papers I choose for my 1280 are way too expensive to be options).

thanks,
allan

Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-15 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Allan Chen 
<allan@k...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>      This isn't strictly B&W related, but there's a lot of 
expertise 
> here so...
>      We have an Epson 9600 in our general public (not 
printing/graphics 
> oriented) lab.  We've been feeding EEM through it so far, as it 
meets 
> the rather pedestrian needs of our main user group.  However, we'd 
like 
> to start offering something archival, as we want to market to some 
fine 
> art folks.
>      Do you have any suggestions as to an alternative to EEM that 
is 
> relatively affordable (EEM is about $110 per 100' roll, so 
somethign in 
> the $175 range is probably the highest we could consider, in all 
> reality)?  GSM isn't an issue (EEM hasn't seem to light weight to 
our 
> users so far).  Paper brightness is, though, as I don't know if our 
> users will understand the conflicting issues of brightness and 
archival 
> quality.  Is there anything that would come close?
>      I'm just not familiar enough with the wide-format paper 
options out 
> there to really know, especially once you throw in the price factor 
(the 
> papers I choose for my 1280 are way too expensive to be options).
> 
> thanks,
> allan

This might be a difficult thing to find. I suggest sending an email 
to the following places:

Jim at http://www.shadesofpaper.com (not sure what to recommend)
Diana at http://www.hawkmtnpaper.com (not sure what to recommend)
Adam at http://www.breathingcolor.com (the Sterling paper might fit 
your needs)

You might need to fix the URL for Hawk Mountain.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-15 by Eric Ashworth

This paper might fit the bill. Go to,

http://www.photowarehouse.biz/premier.html

scroll down to Premier Premium Matte (bottom of the page). The paper  
is acid-free and does contain OBAs, so it is quite bright. And, a 44"  
roll is $109.95. It is meant to be used generally as proofing paper,  
but you might find it works for you. You can also get a pack of 50  
8.5x11 sheets for $12.95, if you wanted to try it out first.

Regards,

Eric
www.ericashworth.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-15 by Allan Chen

Eric (et al),
	Thanks for the information.  I think I may be confused on something - 
why is it that EEM, with OBAs, turns yellow, but that you suggest that 
this paper, also with OBAs, is more archival?
	I realize that I am using "archival" incorrectly - EEM doesn't actually 
fade, right?  It just turns yellow.  Therefore, is the yellowing a 
result of solely the OBAs, or because of some other characteristic of 
EEM in particular?  If it's from the OBAs, does that mean that all 
papers with OBAs will yellow, either at all or as much as EEM?

thanks,
allan

Eric Ashworth wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> This paper might fit the bill. Go to,
> 
> http://www.photowarehouse.biz/premier.html
> 
> scroll down to Premier Premium Matte (bottom of the page). The paper  
> is acid-free and does contain OBAs, so it is quite bright. And, a 44"  
> roll is $109.95. It is meant to be used generally as proofing paper,  
> but you might find it works for you. You can also get a pack of 50  
> 8.5x11 sheets for $12.95, if you wanted to try it out first.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Eric
> www.ericashworth.net
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

[Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-15 by john dean

This is a good paper. It also contains OBA's and is even slightly
brighter than EEMatte. It is thicker but not substantially thicker.
I've found it works well with monochrome also.

John


http://www.digitalartsupplies.com/lephma.html



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Allan Chen
<allan@k...> wrote:
> Eric (et al),
> 	Thanks for the information.  I think I may be confused on something - 
> why is it that EEM, with OBAs, turns yellow, but that you suggest that 
> this paper, also with OBAs, is more archival?
> 	I realize that I am using "archival" incorrectly - EEM doesn't
actually 
> fade, right?  It just turns yellow.  Therefore, is the yellowing a 
> result of solely the OBAs, or because of some other characteristic of 
> EEM in particular?  If it's from the OBAs, does that mean that all 
> papers with OBAs will yellow, either at all or as much as EEM?
> 
> thanks,
> allan
> 
> Eric Ashworth wrote:
> > This paper might fit the bill. Go to,
> > 
> > http://www.photowarehouse.biz/premier.html
> > 
> > scroll down to Premier Premium Matte (bottom of the page). The paper  
> > is acid-free and does contain OBAs, so it is quite bright. And, a
44"  
> > roll is $109.95. It is meant to be used generally as proofing paper,  
> > but you might find it works for you. You can also get a pack of 50  
> > 8.5x11 sheets for $12.95, if you wanted to try it out first.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Eric
> > www.ericashworth.net
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may
be removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

[Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-16 by Clayton Jones

Hello Allan,

>why is it that EEM, with OBAs, turns yellow, but that you suggest 
>that this paper, also with OBAs, is more archival?
>...is the yellowing a result of solely the OBAs, or because of some 
>other characteristic of EEM in particular?  If it's from the OBAs, 
>does that mean that all papers with OBAs will yellow, either at all 
>or as much as EEM?

I don't think EEM yellows because of OBAs (unless it uses really
crummy ones).  It yellows (I'm pretty sure) because it contains
lignens and may also not be completely acid free.  Whatever the
reason, it does it with alarming swiftness.  There are many archival
(acid and lignen free) papers with OBAs that don't change noticeably,
even after several years unprotected by glazing under nearly constant
light.  The subject of OBAs is an ongoing controversy with
disagreement even among "experts".  There is more information about
this at the bottom of the "Great Paper Chase" article at the web link
below.



>I realize that I am using "archival" incorrectly - EEM doesn't 
>actually fade, right? 

Right.  Papers don't fade, inks fade.  So we have to be clear which we
are referring to in our discussions.  If we speak of a print fading
we're usually talking about an ink problem, although a given ink may
fade at different rates on different papers.  Clear as mud? <g>


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-16 by Andy Biggs

Have you thoughts about Moab Kayenta Matte? It is double sided, as well..

Andy 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
Jones
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:02 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

Hello Allan,

>why is it that EEM, with OBAs, turns yellow, but that you suggest that 
>this paper, also with OBAs, is more archival?
>...is the yellowing a result of solely the OBAs, or because of some 
>other characteristic of EEM in particular?  If it's from the OBAs, does 
>that mean that all papers with OBAs will yellow, either at all or as 
>much as EEM?

I don't think EEM yellows because of OBAs (unless it uses really crummy
ones).  It yellows (I'm pretty sure) because it contains lignens and may
also not be completely acid free.  Whatever the reason, it does it with
alarming swiftness.  There are many archival (acid and lignen free) papers
with OBAs that don't change noticeably, even after several years unprotected
by glazing under nearly constant light.  The subject of OBAs is an ongoing
controversy with disagreement even among "experts".  There is more
information about this at the bottom of the "Great Paper Chase" article at
the web link below.



>I realize that I am using "archival" incorrectly - EEM doesn't actually 
>fade, right?

Right.  Papers don't fade, inks fade.  So we have to be clear which we are
referring to in our discussions.  If we speak of a print fading we're
usually talking about an ink problem, although a given ink may fade at
different rates on different papers.  Clear as mud? <g>


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm




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Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-16 by Allan Chen

Clayton et al,
	Thanks for the information.  It really helps a great deal to clear up 
the issue.  I'll be sorting through it all and looking at my options.

allan

Clayton Jones wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello Allan,
> 
> 
>>why is it that EEM, with OBAs, turns yellow, but that you suggest 
>>that this paper, also with OBAs, is more archival?
>>...is the yellowing a result of solely the OBAs, or because of some 
>>other characteristic of EEM in particular?  If it's from the OBAs, 
>>does that mean that all papers with OBAs will yellow, either at all 
>>or as much as EEM?
> 
> 
> I don't think EEM yellows because of OBAs (unless it uses really
> crummy ones).  It yellows (I'm pretty sure) because it contains
> lignens and may also not be completely acid free.  Whatever the
> reason, it does it with alarming swiftness.  There are many archival
> (acid and lignen free) papers with OBAs that don't change noticeably,
> even after several years unprotected by glazing under nearly constant
> light.  The subject of OBAs is an ongoing controversy with
> disagreement even among "experts".  There is more information about
> this at the bottom of the "Great Paper Chase" article at the web link
> below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>I realize that I am using "archival" incorrectly - EEM doesn't 
>>actually fade, right? 
> 
> 
> Right.  Papers don't fade, inks fade.  So we have to be clear which we
> are referring to in our discussions.  If we speak of a print fading
> we're usually talking about an ink problem, although a given ink may
> fade at different rates on different papers.  Clear as mud? <g>
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

[Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-16 by john dean

I know, all of these papers, even the best ones have additives,
brighteners, OBA's, and other stuff in their coatings that are a big
alchemic mystery to me. What we need is a Tsar of paper composition to
set standards and inform the public. Maybe the guy who just got kicked
out of FIMA would want the job.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Allan Chen
<allan@k...> wrote:
> Clayton et al,
> 	Thanks for the information.  It really helps a great deal to clear up 
> the issue.  I'll be sorting through it all and looking at my options.
> 
> allan
> 
> Clayton Jones wrote:
> > Hello Allan,
> > 
> > 
> >>why is it that EEM, with OBAs, turns yellow, but that you suggest 
> >>that this paper, also with OBAs, is more archival?
> >>...is the yellowing a result of solely the OBAs, or because of some 
> >>other characteristic of EEM in particular?  If it's from the OBAs, 
> >>does that mean that all papers with OBAs will yellow, either at all 
> >>or as much as EEM?
> > 
> > 
> > I don't think EEM yellows because of OBAs (unless it uses really
> > crummy ones).  It yellows (I'm pretty sure) because it contains
> > lignens and may also not be completely acid free.  Whatever the
> > reason, it does it with alarming swiftness.  There are many archival
> > (acid and lignen free) papers with OBAs that don't change noticeably,
> > even after several years unprotected by glazing under nearly constant
> > light.  The subject of OBAs is an ongoing controversy with
> > disagreement even among "experts".  There is more information about
> > this at the bottom of the "Great Paper Chase" article at the web link
> > below.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >>I realize that I am using "archival" incorrectly - EEM doesn't 
> >>actually fade, right? 
> > 
> > 
> > Right.  Papers don't fade, inks fade.  So we have to be clear which we
> > are referring to in our discussions.  If we speak of a print fading
> > we're usually talking about an ink problem, although a given ink may
> > fade at different rates on different papers.  Clear as mud? <g>
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may
be removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-17 by Diana York~Hawk Mtn Papers

Grayhawk 1 Photo - single sided 190 GSM/12 mil - acid & lignin free - available in 44" x 100' rolls
and Grayhawk 2 BriteWhite - double sided - acid & lignin free - also available in 44" x 100' rolls
Diana York   888-807-2248
Hawk Mountain Papers
www.hawkmtnartpapers.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Greg 
  Diana at http://www.hawkmtnartpapers.com (not sure what to recommend)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-18 by Kirk Thompson

This is a reply mainly to Clayton:

Your note prompted me to look again at the Paper Chase article.  I was glad to see that 
Moab claims to have fixed their flaking and ink crystallization problems with Entrada.

But your entry tips me off to something about color (instead of 
digitalblackandwhitetheprint) work:

For those of us who tried to use Entrada for both BW & color, I would infer from your notes 
on differences between old & new coatings that our color profiles for Entrada should go 
into the trash, & we should make new ones.

[Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-18 by Clayton Jones

Hello Kirk,

>This is a reply mainly to Clayton:
>Your note prompted me to look again at the Paper Chase article.  I 
>was glad to see that Moab claims to have fixed their flaking and 
>ink crystallization problems with Entrada.

I have been too busy to do extensive testing with the new Entrada, but
my preliminary tests seem to indicate that the flaking problem is
improved.  Once I get some mileage on the paper I'll update the
article.  

 
>But your entry tips me off to something about color (instead of 
>digitalblackandwhitetheprint) work:
>For those of us who tried to use Entrada for both BW & color, I 
>would infer from your notes on differences between old & new 
>coatings that our color profiles for Entrada should go into the 
>trash, & we should make new ones.

I don't know whether their actual coating formula has changed.  During
my conversation with their tech guy he talked about production and
finishing techniques as the source of the flaking problem, not the
formula itself.   But it seems to me it would be easy enough to find
out: make a print and see what it looks like.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] Re: affordable alternatives to EEM in 44" rolls

2005-09-18 by Paul Roark

>...
> why is it that EEM, with OBAs, turns yellow, but that you suggest that
> this paper, also with OBAs, is more archival?

I detect yellowing in all papers with brighteners that I've tested.  The
OBAs may differ in quality, but all of those used in the papers I've dealt
with "fade" like any dye.  When that happens, the paper becomes more like
the natural, non-OBA papers in that there is a slight creamy look -- which
is yellow in comparison.

The fading of the OBAs does not necessarily affect the image or longevity of
the paper.

EEM's "problem" (from a long term storage perspective) is that it is acidic.
Acids attack the cellulose of the paper (even if they may actually help the
image).  So, acidic paper is not considered "archival," which usually refers
to dark storage life.

While the yellowing I see in fade testing with EEM and other brightened
papers appears to be from light exposure fading the OBAs, the yellowing that
happens from acids occurs even in dark storage.

Whether the acid reserve in EEM is primarily lignin is questionable.  One
initial test by an expert on another list found little evidence of lignin.
My informal and not particularly long UV test of EEM with others found
little difference -- all the good papers and EEM actually were bleached by
the UV (back paper side, not OBA-laced coating).  Lignin is photo-sensitive
to UV and should have caused a yellow shift if it were present in
significant quantities (some cheap but buffered papers yellowed from their
lignin content).  But EEM is clearly acidic, and an Epson tech has told me
it is not lignin free.  While it makes an excellent display medium, it is
clearly not collectible -- not to be used where long life is desired.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 	I realize that I am using "archival" incorrectly - EEM doesn't
> actually
> fade, right?  It just turns yellow.  Therefore, is the yellowing a
> result of solely the OBAs, or because of some other characteristic of
> EEM in particular?  If it's from the OBAs, does that mean that all
> papers with OBAs will yellow, either at all or as much as EEM?
> 
> thanks,
> allan
> 
> Eric Ashworth wrote:
> > This paper might fit the bill. Go to,
> >
> > http://www.photowarehouse.biz/premier.html
> >
> > scroll down to Premier Premium Matte (bottom of the page). The paper
> > is acid-free and does contain OBAs, so it is quite bright. And, a 44"
> > roll is $109.95. It is meant to be used generally as proofing paper,
> > but you might find it works for you. You can also get a pack of 50
> > 8.5x11 sheets for $12.95, if you wanted to try it out first.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Eric
> > www.ericashworth.net
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
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> >
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> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

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