Digital BW, The Print

FYI....Recently I started using Innova Smooth Photo Cotton 315 in 17"rolls for my Epson 4000 
printer, a decision based upon severe testing of many papers by a Kalamazoo friend Tom 
Brayne, also a member of this forum.  I love the look and feel of the paper, and the tonality it 
offers, but I'm having a problem I hadn't planned upon.  When Innova trims the paper, small 
shards and bits of the stuff get caught up in the roll along the edges and when that part 
comes into the printer these stick to the surface, get printed over, then when the print comes 
out the pieces fall off and show up as white spots, not unlike the dust spots we all knew and 
loved in conventional darkroom work.  So far I've gone through two rolls and the inside of my 
printer had many of these paper particles sitting around the print head area and such.  
Yesterday it took me roughly 8 prints to get three good ones that didn't have this problem, 
so I switched back to Epson Smooth Fine Art just to get the job done, although I don't like the 
warmish tone compared to the Innova white.  I also had to do a nozzle clean as I think some 
of these pieces had gotten caught up in the print head itself.  Not completely sure about this 
one, but I think that's what happened.  

This paper is very nice, but until Innova can figure out how to trim the paper clean I'm going 
to be very careful when using it, and may well try to clean and blow off the paper before it 
gets into the printer, and will have to do this before each print.  What a pain.

My personal & similar woes occurred with Entrada Natural - both flaking & ink 
crystallization where the blacks were dense.  Many of us have found a favorite paper from 
the standpoint of D max & tone, only to find that the smaller manufacturers or packagers 
have trouble with cutting residue, flaking, ink crystallization, etc.  

For such reasons I've recently settled for BW on the paper that nobody else seems to like - 
Ultrasmooth.  The paper base is almost the same tone as a 'classic' gelatin-silver paper 
like Portriga, the blacks are as good as one can get with any paper & 4000/QTR, and you 
encounter no production errors/flaking problems.  

And if you buy the newly-available 13x19 & 17x22 sheets, you get 325g paper stock with 
coating on both sides, and no curling.  The high cost of the paper is offset by the fact that 
you can recycle imperfect prints as work-print paper.  It's handy that the 17x22 comes in 
bulletproof packaging - no more corners dented in shipping - & that it makes 2 11x17 
sheets.  

The sheets are covered with an odd white dust that isn't present on the one-sided roll 
paper, but it's easy to wipe off & doesn't seem to affect the print.

> ... the paper that nobody else seems to like - Ultrasmooth ...

I use it and think it's great paper -- perhaps the best there is in some
respects.


Flaking and other such problems play a major role in my paper selection.  I
have had very good luck with Epson UltraSmooth and PermaJet Alpha in 24"
rolls.  I have found no significant flaking or dust problems with them.  

While Permajet Alpha has an Innova-type coating, the paper base is cotton
and not like the similar Innova non-OBA paper I've tried.  I'm not sure at
all that PermaJet uses the same rendering (cutting) company as the Innova
that is sold in the U.S.  I hope Permajet finds a good U.S. partner to
distribute there "Alpha" paper (at a competitive price, please).  Jobo,
which is no longer in business in the U.S., and Adorama were the only
sources of PermaJet Alpha that I know of in the U.S.

I use 24" rolls, and I wonder if there is any processing or cutting
differences with these than the 13" or other size rolls.  Is it possible
some rolls are small volume products that are cut down differently?

One reason I like the 7xxx series is that I can use standard 24" paper
rolls.  (Frankly, I also prefer a paper-size to image ratio that is larger
-- i.e., more of a paper margin -- than we usually use for cut sheets and
standard image sizes.)
 
I'm tempted to try next the PremierArt 205 24" roll.  I think it might have
a good price-performance point.  (I'm mostly interested in non-brightened
papers to avoid yellowing that customers might see as a sign of non-archival
paper.)   With the Epson K3 technology and drivers the
PremierArt-UltraSmooth paper coating may have the dmax advantage now.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 


Kirk Thompson wrote:

> 
> My personal & similar woes occurred with Entrada Natural - both flaking &
> ink
> crystallization where the blacks were dense.  Many of us have found a
> favorite paper from
> the standpoint of D max & tone, only to find that the smaller
> manufacturers or packagers
> have trouble with cutting residue, flaking, ink crystallization, etc.
> 
> For such reasons I've recently settled for BW on the paper that nobody
> else seems to like -
> Ultrasmooth.  The paper base is almost the same tone as a 'classic'
> gelatin-silver paper
> like Portriga, the blacks are as good as one can get with any paper &
> 4000/QTR, and you
> encounter no production errors/flaking problems.
> 
> And if you buy the newly-available 13x19 & 17x22 sheets, you get 325g
> paper stock with
> coating on both sides, and no curling.  The high cost of the paper is
> offset by the fact that
> you can recycle imperfect prints as work-print paper.  It's handy that the
> 17x22 comes in
> bulletproof packaging - no more corners dented in shipping - & that it
> makes 2 11x17
> sheets.
> 
> The sheets are covered with an odd white dust that isn't present on the
> one-sided roll
> paper, but it's easy to wipe off & doesn't seem to affect the print.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kirk Thompson" 
<thompsonkirk@h...> wrote:
....
> For such reasons I've recently settled for BW on the paper that nobody else seems to like - 
> Ultrasmooth...
> ... the blacks are as good as one can get with any paper & 4000/QTR...

I'm suprised to hear this. I'm consistantly told the dmax falls short of other papers, 
particularly with Ptones.
Do you know if good black with this paper is primarily with UCMK OEM ink?
Thanks,
Tyler

I hope you relay your experiences to the company. They are new and would be very 
interested in problems users are experiencing.
Will they be receptive? I don't know.
Will it make a difference? Who knows, worth a try..
That was my Rumsveld impression, unfortunately it gets old very fast.
Tyler

I finally had this happen to me using one of my favorite papers which is Hahnemuhle 
German Etching.  It is not a consistant problem and an easy way to avoid it entirely seems 
to simply pull some paper out and go over it with a soft lens brush before printing.  Seems 
to be mostly an issue with the beginning of the rolls.  I also use Epson UltraSmooth and 
have never had any issues with it.  I will say that the Hahnemuhle(and the Innova I tested 
which prints very similar to Hahnemuhle) does indeed give a slightly deeper Black and 
better seperation in the shadows than UltraSmooth.

Tariq

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tims8686" <tims8686@y...> 
wrote:
> FYI....Recently I started using Innova Smooth Photo Cotton 315 in 17"rolls for my Epson 
4000 
> printer, a decision based upon severe testing of many papers by a Kalamazoo friend 
Tom 
> Brayne, also a member of this forum.  I love the look and feel of the paper, and the 
tonality it 
> offers, but I'm having a problem I hadn't planned upon.  When Innova trims the paper, 
small 
> shards and bits of the stuff get caught up in the roll along the edges and when that part 
> comes into the printer these stick to the surface, get printed over, then when the print 
comes 
> out the pieces fall off and show up as white spots, not unlike the dust spots we all knew 
and 
> loved in conventional darkroom work.  So far I've gone through two rolls and the inside 
of my 
> printer had many of these paper particles sitting around the print head area and such.  
> Yesterday it took me roughly 8 prints to get three good ones that didn't have this 
problem, 
> so I switched back to Epson Smooth Fine Art just to get the job done, although I don't 
like the 
> warmish tone compared to the Innova white.  I also had to do a nozzle clean as I think 
some 
> of these pieces had gotten caught up in the print head itself.  Not completely sure about 
this 
> one, but I think that's what happened.  
> 
> This paper is very nice, but until Innova can figure out how to trim the paper clean I'm 
going 
> to be very careful when using it, and may well try to clean and blow off the paper before 
it 
> gets into the printer, and will have to do this before each print.  What a pain.

> I'm consistantly told the [UltraSmooth] dmax falls short of
> other papers, particularly with Ptones.
> Do you know if good black with this paper is primarily with UCMK OEM ink?

I think it's mostly an Epson UC/K3 MK difference.  I can't speak for Museum
K, but with Eboni (and OEM K3 color) in the 2400 in ABW mode with an EEM
media type setting, PremierArt 205, which I believe is the same coating as
UltraSmooth, gets a dmax of 1.60 (the low end of what I'll use); Alpha
(Innova coating) = 1.64; Moab Natural = 1.57.  These are the non-OBA papers
that mostly come to mind.  For reference, EEM = 1.63, and, on top as usual,
Photo Rag = 1.68.  (These are all fresh readings that will probably increase
overnight.)


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Well there are the knowns and then there are the unknowns.....what we 
are dealing with here is the difference between what is known and 
what can be considered unknown. In regard to Innova, there are what 
we think of as the knowns and then there are the unknowns. If you 
asking if everything is known the answer would obviously be no, but 
that is assuming that what we are dealing with here IS a knowable 
quotient. Some things that initially seem unknowable turn out to 
actually have aspects of them that are in some cases actually 
knowable.But that would be assuming more than I am willing to assume 
at the current time. You certainly can't expect those with the 
greatest knowledge to have all the answeres all the time now can you? 
It depends on when you ask the question.

DR. 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> I hope you relay your experiences to the company. They are new and 
would be very 
> interested in problems users are experiencing.
> Will they be receptive? I don't know.
> Will it make a difference? Who knows, worth a try..
> That was my Rumsveld impression, unfortunately it gets old very 
fast.
> Tyler

That's interesting. I've used a whole lot of this paper in the last 
couple of months with the 44" and 24 rolls and have never seen any of 
this loose paper that you describe. This and the Soft Texture has 
always functioned flawlessly for me. I have had no flaking of any 
kind in several rolls used. But I totally believe what you describe 
because I've experienced that with William Turner before. It could be 
dull trimming blades in the factory or something. I certainly hope it 
doesn't turn out to be a repeating problem. I am just getting used to 
this paper. It is a bit smoother than Photo rag and with noticeably 
less OBA content, making it perfect for a lot of things. Is anyone 
testing the new Crane? I have a few sheets on order just out of 
curiousity. I believe it will be similar to Premier Art Hotpress but 
I'm wondering how the color will look with monochrome.

John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tims8686" 
<tims8686@y...> wrote:
> FYI....Recently I started using Innova Smooth Photo Cotton 315 in 
17"rolls for my Epson 4000 
> printer, a decision based upon severe testing of many papers by a 
Kalamazoo friend Tom 
> Brayne, also a member of this forum.  I love the look and feel of 
the paper, and the tonality it 
> offers, but I'm having a problem I hadn't planned upon.  When 
Innova trims the paper, small 
> shards and bits of the stuff get caught up in the roll along the 
edges and when that part 
> comes into the printer these stick to the surface, get printed 
over, then when the print comes 
> out the pieces fall off and show up as white spots, not unlike the 
dust spots we all knew and 
> loved in conventional darkroom work.  So far I've gone through two 
rolls and the inside of my 
> printer had many of these paper particles sitting around the print 
head area and such.  
> Yesterday it took me roughly 8 prints to get three good ones that 
didn't have this problem, 
> so I switched back to Epson Smooth Fine Art just to get the job 
done, although I don't like the 
> warmish tone compared to the Innova white.  I also had to do a 
nozzle clean as I think some 
> of these pieces had gotten caught up in the print head itself.  Not 
completely sure about this 
> one, but I think that's what happened.  
> 
> This paper is very nice, but until Innova can figure out how to 
trim the paper clean I'm going 
> to be very careful when using it, and may well try to clean and 
blow off the paper before it 
> gets into the printer, and will have to do this before each print.  
What a pain.

i've just had this problem with innova soft texture in 24" width rolls.  i
thought i had a bad flake problem, but i do note that the edges are very
'dirty' with regards to paper fibers.  could be that stuff migrating onto
the paper, as others described.  regardless, it's a major drag.

kenb

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of john dean
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:32 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Innova Paper Woes
> 
> That's interesting. I've used a whole lot of this paper in 
> the last couple of months with the 44" and 24 rolls and have 
> never seen any of this loose paper that you describe. This 
> and the Soft Texture has always functioned flawlessly for me. 
> I have had no flaking of any kind in several rolls used. But 
> I totally believe what you describe because I've experienced 
> that with William Turner before. It could be dull trimming 
> blades in the factory or something. I certainly hope it 
> doesn't turn out to be a repeating problem. I am just getting 
> used to this paper. It is a bit smoother than Photo rag and 
> with noticeably less OBA content, making it perfect for a lot 
> of things. Is anyone testing the new Crane? I have a few 
> sheets on order just out of curiousity. I believe it will be 
> similar to Premier Art Hotpress but I'm wondering how the 
> color will look with monochrome.
> 
> John

Stop! Stop! You're killin' me. I give, you win.
Outstanding work, way better than mine.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:

> Well there are the knowns and then there are the unknowns.....what we 
> are dealing with here is the difference between what is known and 
> what can be considered unknown. In regard to Innova, there are what 
> we think of as the knowns and then there are the unknowns. If you 
> asking if everything is known the answer would obviously be no, but 
> that is assuming that what we are dealing with here IS a knowable 
> quotient. Some things that initially seem unknowable turn out to 
> actually have aspects of them that are in some cases actually 
> knowable.But that would be assuming more than I am willing to assume 
> at the current time. You certainly can't expect those with the 
> greatest knowledge to have all the answeres all the time now can you? 
> It depends on when you ask the question.
> 
> DR. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > I hope you relay your experiences to the company. They are new and 
> would be very 
> > interested in problems users are experiencing.
> > Will they be receptive? I don't know.
> > Will it make a difference? Who knows, worth a try..
> > That was my Rumsveld impression, unfortunately it gets old very 
> fast.
> > Tyler

I,too, have experienced some "flaking" with a box of 8.5x11 Innova 
Photo Smooth. When I look at the sheet closely at an angle it appears 
that a couple paper flakes are on the surface and have been "coated" 
over. It seems the coating is the only thing holding the "flake" on 
the sheet, which is easily dislodged when put through the printer. I 
flicked a couple off OK, before printing, but it left an uncoated spot 
on the paper (which is hard to see, BTW). The HPR flaking I've 
experienced has the paper dust sitting on the surface and a bit easier 
to wipe/blow off. 
I only see this on a few sheets but it is there. Otherwise I like the 
Innova paper very much.
Louis Meluso

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > I'm consistantly told the [UltraSmooth] dmax falls short of
> > other papers, particularly with Ptones.
> > Do you know if good black with this paper is primarily with UCMK 
OEM ink?
> 
> I think it's mostly an Epson UC/K3 MK difference.  I can't speak 
for Museum
> K, but with Eboni (and OEM K3 color) in the 2400 in ABW mode with 
an EEM
> media type setting, PremierArt 205, which I believe is the same 
coating as
> UltraSmooth, gets a dmax of 1.60 (the low end of what I'll use); 
Alpha
> (Innova coating) = 1.64; Moab Natural = 1.57.  These are the non-
OBA papers
> that mostly come to mind.  For reference, EEM = 1.63, and, on top 
as usual,
> Photo Rag = 1.68.  (These are all fresh readings that will 
probably increase
> overnight.)
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

I am just now profiling both Ultrasmooth and EEM with piezotones 
(Museum K) and QTR.  I have an old densitometer that may not be 
terribly accurate but I think it is probably consistent.  My dmax on 
Ultrasmooth is 1.68 and on EEM is 1.67.  Those values may not be 
accurate but I would guess the dmax on those 2 papers using Museum K 
are similar.  Which is about what I get on Photo Rag.

Jenny
www.jennyellerbe.com