Digital BW, The Print

Hello,
Several years ago I started with quadtones in my Epson 1160, using 
the VM colorset, but after a time, didn't really like anything other 
than a warmtone set. Starting with a new cartridge in my CIS, I took 
the VM toned ink in the Yellow position out of the inkset, and put 
the Original MIS Quadtone 25% in its place. This gave me a warm 
inkset that I've been using successfully for about 5 years & with 
several new bottles of the same ink purchased since. 

Recently I purchased a new set of these same inks from MIS, at the 
same time that I installed a new cartridge set. I still had about an 
inch of ink in the previous bottles, but elected to just use the 
newer full bottles in the cleaned CIS unit, with the new cartridge. 
On printing tho, I noticed strange greenish casts in my prints. I did 
a swab test on the Magenta position ink, and noticed a big difference 
in comparison to the previous bottle labled as the same ink. 

I contacted MIS Support and sent a swab comparison of the VM-Quad-4-
M. After some time they've come back and said : "The tests have all 
come back correct on our side. The best option would be to send the 
bottle back to us and we can test it further, and if need be replace 
the bottle.Please contact us if we may assist you any further."

So I did a full swab test of the two sets - previous and new - and 
come up with astounding results. I've forwarded these tests to MIS 
also, before taking any more steps.

Any ideas from the group?  See the swab test at 
http://www.kensmithart.com/forum/QuadSwabs.jpg

best
Ken Smith

MIS may not have the old VM inks any more.  Those new versions look like --
at least for the lighter ones -- they are based on a neutralized inkset.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rikyu99
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 11:33 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] MIS VM Ink Color Change
> 
> Hello,
> Several years ago I started with quadtones in my Epson 1160, using
> the VM colorset, but after a time, didn't really like anything other
> than a warmtone set. Starting with a new cartridge in my CIS, I took
> the VM toned ink in the Yellow position out of the inkset, and put
> the Original MIS Quadtone 25% in its place. This gave me a warm
> inkset that I've been using successfully for about 5 years & with
> several new bottles of the same ink purchased since.
> 
> Recently I purchased a new set of these same inks from MIS, at the
> same time that I installed a new cartridge set. I still had about an
> inch of ink in the previous bottles, but elected to just use the
> newer full bottles in the cleaned CIS unit, with the new cartridge.
> On printing tho, I noticed strange greenish casts in my prints. I did
> a swab test on the Magenta position ink, and noticed a big difference
> in comparison to the previous bottle labled as the same ink.
> 
> I contacted MIS Support and sent a swab comparison of the VM-Quad-4-
> M. After some time they've come back and said : "The tests have all
> come back correct on our side. The best option would be to send the
> bottle back to us and we can test it further, and if need be replace
> the bottle.Please contact us if we may assist you any further."
> 
> So I did a full swab test of the two sets - previous and new - and
> come up with astounding results. I've forwarded these tests to MIS
> also, before taking any more steps.
> 
> Any ideas from the group?  See the swab test at
> http://www.kensmithart.com/forum/QuadSwabs.jpg
> 
> best
> Ken Smith
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
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This is of concern to us as well. Since recently installing a new CFS with
new VM inks on our 1160 we have also found it impossible to achieve the same
warm tones we could previously.

I wonder then if the ink has changed either by accident or design. The
latest VM-QUAD-4M we have has an expiration date of 7/18/07. Unfortunately
we don't have any of the older ink to compare with but Ken's swab test
certainly fits with what we are seeing with prints we are producing.

I'd be interested in anyone else's experience re this.

Tony Kelly

http://www.digital-lucida.com.au

--------------------------------

on 2/11/05 4:25 PM, Paul Roark at wrote:

> MIS may not have the old VM inks any more.  Those new versions look like --
> at least for the lighter ones -- they are based on a neutralized inkset.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 

>> 
>> So I did a full swab test of the two sets - previous and new - and
>> come up with astounding results. I've forwarded these tests to MIS
>> also, before taking any more steps.
>> 
>> Any ideas from the group?  See the swab test at
>> http://www.kensmithart.com/forum/QuadSwabs.jpg
>> 
>> best
>> Ken Smith

> ... Since recently installing a new CFS with
> new VM inks on our 1160 we have also found it impossible to achieve the
> same
> warm tones we could previously.

I'd recommend switching to the UT inkset.  It uses carbon inks where the old
VM used the carbon that had some dye in it.  The UT inkset is able to print
warmer than the VM inks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

What process do you use to decide how to adjust your images and/or 
printer settings for a new paper?  I've been using MIS EZ inks in a C84 
with great results for the past year, but have only used EEM.  Now I've 
picked up some sample packs from Moab and Innova, and am wondering how 
to make the best use of just a couple of sheets of a particular paper, 
in order to make a reasonable decision on whether to order more of it or 
not.  (All of the papers are much more expensive than EEM, so I don't 
really want to just order a box of each to play with.)

Do you just print a small image and see how it looks, then make some 
adjustments to the print driver (which on the C84 offers brightness, 
contrast and saturation sliders as well as C, M and Y, although I should 
think only the first three would be useful for the EZ inks) or do you 
fiddle with the image itself?  Given my druthers, I think I'd rather be 
able to print the same image on different papers just using different 
printer settings, but don't know if that is really feasible given these 
inks and this printer.

Or is there an orderly way to use a step wedge for this sort of 
analysis?  And if adjustments seem to be necessary, do you adjust the 
printer or the image?

Thanks for any advice and experience.

Cheers,
Kip

Kip,

> 
> What process do you use to decide how to adjust your images and/or
> printer settings for a new paper? 

I first determine what paper type setting gives the best dmax.  Then it's
just a question of getting the contras and brightness right with the
sliders.  The limiting factor is usually the separation of the shadow tones.
I use a 21-step test file for this.  These are posted at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Test-files.htm . 
 

>   I've been using MIS EZ inks in a C84
> with great results for the past year, but have only used EEM.  
> Now I've picked up some sample packs from Moab and Innova, 

See my Readme file at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-EZ-UT-Readme.htm.  I
have starting setting recommendations for these papers.  I'm not sure how
they compare for the C84.  I have not found good C86 driver settings for
Moab.  It has the best ramp with the "Plain Paper," but it usually bands.
"Matte Paper - Heavyweight" is probably overloading the paper.  The best
image I've been able to get with Moab uses a curve that I also have posted.
If the curve is off, I also have a tutorial on making and adjusting these
curves at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/EZ_Adjustment_Curves.htm . 

> and am wondering how to make the best use of just a couple of 
> sheets of a particular paper,...

I paste 21-step test files (one at a time) onto an 8x10.2 image, starting at
the top and moving down the minimum needed to avoid overlap.  This allows
efficient use of the full letter-size paper.


> Do you just print a small image and see how it looks, then make some
> adjustments to the print driver (which on the C84 offers brightness, 
> contrast 

Yes, these 2 sliders are the first ones to try.



>  and saturation sliders as well as C, M and Y,

C & Y can help with shadow separation.  See the PremierArt Hot Press slider
recommendations.


> I think I'd rather be
> able to print the same image on different papers just using different
> printer settings,


That is the goal.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I heard back from MIS....they think that it's possible that my older 
inkset had ink that had separated, changing the tone. But, I looked 
back at my 'color bar' prints using my inks, nearly 5 years ago, and 
those colors still match what my swab test just showed, before MIS sent 
me the 'new' ink. I have to conclude there is a change in the ink I got 
recently from MIS. What is particularly strange, is that even the 25% 
ink of the MIS Original Quad set, looks different from what I have been 
using. So it's not just the VM colors that are different.

By the way, the VM black - my old ink and the new one sent - both have 
the solvent smell, and the black looks like it is the same in my swab 
tests.

Ken


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> MIS may not have the old VM inks any more.  Those new versions look 
like --
> at least for the lighter ones -- they are based on a neutralized 
inkset.

> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
>

After years of using the inkset, with lots of prints made and notes 
in order to replicate those prints, I had no need for a different 
inkset. I'm not an experimenter in inks, but would rather spend my 
time being a photographer, using the ink as a tool. When a change is 
made in the inkset I've been using, that completely upsets my 
workflow. It doesn't make me happy in the least.

Ken


> 
> I'd recommend switching to the UT inkset.  It uses carbon inks 
where the old
> VM used the carbon that had some dye in it.  The UT inkset is able 
to print

> warmer than the VM inks.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi Tony,
The inks I received from MIS have an expiration of 7/6/07, presumably 
near to the same batch as yours. On top of the other problems I've 
noted with color in the new inks, my 1160 has begun spitting and 
clogging. I don't think it is the CIS/Cartridge change, since I've 
changed cartridges before, charged it the same way. I'm beginning to 
wonder if there is some correlation between the two problems. I'd be 
interested to know if you are having any other difficulties besides 
noticing the color changes. 

It's very disconcerting!

ken


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Kelly 
<tonyk@d...> wrote:
>
> This is of concern to us as well. Since recently installing a new 
CFS with
> new VM inks on our 1160 we have also found it impossible to achieve 
the same
> warm tones we could previously.
> 
> I wonder then if the ink has changed either by accident or design. 
The
> latest VM-QUAD-4M we have has an expiration date of 7/18/07. 
Unfortunately
> we don't have any of the older ink to compare with but Ken's swab 
test

> certainly fits with what we are seeing with prints we are producing.
> 
> I'd be interested in anyone else's experience re this.
> 
> Tony Kelly
> 
> http://www.digital-lucida.com.au
> 
> --------------------------------

Ken,

I also am not at all convinced by MIS's response to you. Our experience
recently with newly purchased VM inks completely concurs with your own.
Reference prints we have produced in the past no longer have the same hue.
It looks like the magenta position ink VM-QUAD-4M is a completely different
tone. Prints which should have warm hue now have a perceptible greenish
cast.

Whilst I think overall MIS provide much needed product I have found their
technical backup to be less than satisfactory on occasions.

I think Paul's suggestion re UT inks is sound, the issue remains however
that if this is an MIS screw up, what confidence do we have that changing
from one MIS product to another will guarantee a consistent product.

Tony Kelly



on 3/11/05 2:42 PM, rikyu99 at wrote:

> After years of using the inkset, with lots of prints made and notes
> in order to replicate those prints, I had no need for a different
> inkset. I'm not an experimenter in inks, but would rather spend my
> time being a photographer, using the ink as a tool. When a change is
> made in the inkset I've been using, that completely upsets my
> workflow. It doesn't make me happy in the least.
> 
> Ken
>

Hi Ken,

Yes, strangely we don't seem to get consistent nozzle checks and often it
takes some work to clear this up. However, our poor nozzle checks don't
relate to the Magenta position but most often to the black position so I
can't really claim a correlation exists.

Perhaps our printer is just getting on, it does come good with a little
effort, it's just the tone of the prints that is so out of sorts with
previous work that we are finding it extremely frustrating.


Tony Kelly
________________________

on 3/11/05 2:50 PM, rikyu99 at wrote:

> Hi Tony,
> The inks I received from MIS have an expiration of 7/6/07, presumably
> near to the same batch as yours. On top of the other problems I've
> noted with color in the new inks, my 1160 has begun spitting and
> clogging. I don't think it is the CIS/Cartridge change, since I've
> changed cartridges before, charged it the same way. I'm beginning to
> wonder if there is some correlation between the two problems. I'd be
> interested to know if you are having any other difficulties besides
> noticing the color changes.
> 
> It's very disconcerting!
> 
> ken

>I have to conclude there is a >change in the ink I got
>recently from MIS.

I used the VM set in an 1160 for several years and everything was fine
except for the occasional defective cartridge. Then the inks started showing
a decided color cast. After several tries at exchanging inks I bought a
1280 and the UT inks. Those showed a magenta cast from the beginning. Part 
of the problem was a
bad mix of inks in one cartridge, which I solved with Paul Roark's help. But
the prints still weren't a good "neutral" b&w. This all took place over a
period of about six months or longer, during which I couldn't make a decent
print. Finally when QTR came out I bought a 2200 and I use it with the Epson
inks and no problems at all. Shortly after buying the 2200 I started reading 
here that MIS got a bad batch of inks that produced a magenta cast.

MIS is a great company in many respects, good customer service, you talk to
a real live person when you call, prompt shipping, exchange of defective
cartridges without any hassle, free curves available from Paul Roard, etc.
Unfortunately I think they have some problems with consistentcy from batch 
to batch and/or quality control and I believe that's what you're
bumping into.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "rikyu99" <ken@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS VM Ink Color Change


I heard back from MIS....they think that it's possible that my older
inkset had ink that had separated, changing the tone. But, I looked
back at my 'color bar' prints using my inks, nearly 5 years ago, and
those colors still match what my swab test just showed, before MIS sent
me the 'new' ink. I have to conclude there is a change in the ink I got
recently from MIS. What is particularly strange, is that even the 25%
ink of the MIS Original Quad set, looks different from what I have been
using. So it's not just the VM colors that are different.

By the way, the VM black - my old ink and the new one sent - both have
the solvent smell, and the black looks like it is the same in my swab
tests.

Ken


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> MIS may not have the old VM inks any more.  Those new versions look
like --
> at least for the lighter ones -- they are based on a neutralized
inkset.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>







Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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