Digital BW, The Print

OK so I struggled with the topic heading!  I am interesting in creating an effect similar to that 
used by Nick Brandt in some of his images (see  www.nickbrandt.com ).  A good example is 
his Rhino mother and baby" image.  I am not worried about the external border effect but 
rather the liquid-like effect he has used internally close to the border, as if the film plate has 
been damaged by a chemical spill. (See the top centre edge of the image I mentioned.  Also 
see his "Lion Portrait" image.)  I have used the external edge effects in the past (using 
Photographic Edges 6) but have not been able to figure out the internal edge effect.  (I hope 
this makes sense.)  I was thinking of getting some old plate scans but have no idea where to 
find some.  I was even thinking about buying some water colour paint and painting on the my 
scanner glass but thought that this would not end up being realistic.  Any ideas or help 
appreciated.

Steve

You could produce the fake border effect using film. 

You'd prepare a sheet film holder with an opaque, roughly rectangular
mask with rounded/uneven edges, use it to make various exposures to
get film totally black in the exposed central area, surrounded by
feathered or rough clear edges (eg perhaps 1/4"-1/2" wide all around
on 4X5 sheet film). 

You'd contact those sheets onto additional positive film sheets, the
edges of which you'd abuse with temperature (eg hot, or hot then cold
water, or burn with a light bulb or steam iron). The contacted film
would have clear center where the original was totally opaque, the
surrounding area would be blistered/bubbled, maybe even browned. 

You'd want to produce a bunch of different positives (clear centers)
so the fake wouldn't be too repetitive.  

Kodalith would be ideal if you cold find it, since it's got a thin,
maximum-clear base.

Polaroid Type 51 might be more convenient, if you could find it and if
it wasn't fogged with age.
 

   I have used the external edge effects in the past (using 
> Photographic Edges 6) but have not been able to figure out the
internal edge effect.  (I hope 
> this makes sense.)  I was thinking of getting some old plate scans
but have no idea where to 
> find some.

> From: djon43 <djon43@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:22:17 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Old plate scans - effects
> 
> You could produce the fake border effect using film.
> 
> You'd prepare a sheet film holder with an opaque, roughly rectangular
> mask with rounded/uneven edges, use it to make various exposures to
> get film totally black in the exposed central area, surrounded by
> feathered or rough clear edges (eg perhaps 1/4"-1/2" wide all around
> on 4X5 sheet film).

I think this part I have through other means.
 
> 
> You'd contact those sheets onto additional positive film sheets, the
> edges of which you'd abuse with temperature (eg hot, or hot then cold
> water, or burn with a light bulb or steam iron). The contacted film
> would have clear center where the original was totally opaque, the
> surrounding area would be blistered/bubbled, maybe even browned.
> 
> You'd want to produce a bunch of different positives (clear centers)
> so the fake wouldn't be too repetitive.
> 
> Kodalith would be ideal if you cold find it, since it's got a thin,
> maximum-clear base.
> 
> Polaroid Type 51 might be more convenient, if you could find it and if
> it wasn't fogged with age.


I think this is the part that I am missing.   I wonder if exposed slide film
(no image) could be used - say Provia.  The largest I have is 645 which may
make a little more finicky to deal with.

Steve Kale,
I think that what you are seeing is a blurring/distortion effect. The 
images at Nick Brandt's site have the effect of being made with an old 
Diana plastic lens toy camera or a with a tilt/shift camera or with a 
"Lens Baby" attachment. In all the above, the image is distorted on the 
edges with the center of the image in good focus. So, the effect that 
you are seeing is an in-camera effect during the taking of the image. 
To simulate the effect after the fact try any number of the "lens" 
burring effects out there for Photoshop on a selective area of the file 
(namely around the edges to leave the center in focus).

Good luck,
Hal Gage
halgage.com

No it's not the blurring/distortion.  That's easy in PS.  I'm talking about
where it looks like the image has been flashed with a Bunsen burner or had
some liquid spilt on it.

> From: Hal Gage <halgage@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:27:06 -0900
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Old plate scans - effects
> 
> Steve Kale,
> I think that what you are seeing is a blurring/distortion effect. The
> images at Nick Brandt's site have the effect of being made with an old
> Diana plastic lens toy camera or a with a tilt/shift camera or with a
> "Lens Baby" attachment. In all the above, the image is distorted on the
> edges with the center of the image in good focus. So, the effect that
> you are seeing is an in-camera effect during the taking of the image.
> To simulate the effect after the fact try any number of the "lens"
> burring effects out there for Photoshop on a selective area of the file
> (namely around the edges to leave the center in focus).
> 
> Good luck,
> Hal Gage
> halgage.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> > From: djon43 <djon43@y...>
 
> > 
> > You could produce the fake border effect using film. 
> > Kodalith would be ideal if you cold find it, since it's got a thin,
> > maximum-clear base.
 > 
> 
> I think this is the part that I am missing.   I wonder if exposed
slide film
> (no image) could be used - say Provia.  The largest I have is 645
which may
> make a little more finicky to deal with.

Steve, I think 645 is too small, if you're imagining as I am actually
damaging emulsion in order to produce your border.

Perhaps you cold paint a black border on white paper, give it to an
old fashioned lithographer (still uses a process camera)and ask him to
make a stack of litho films that you can torture variously with heat 
:-)  He might even give you some old film to fool with in advance, to
see if this concept leads in the right direction. 

And then you'd Photoshop it, of course.




>

Steve, I believe what you're looking at is at least in part a 
Polaroid transfer technique, though I think he's working with the 
neg part of type PN Polaroid. onto 4x5 polaroid film in the 
Photograph a straight image with Polaroid in a 4x5 camera. If you 
partially peel up the edges while it is developing and remove the 
paper mask that gives it a clean edge, that gives you the super 
sloppy edges and perhaps some of the internal messiness as well. The 
effect would be a bit ifferent using the print oart versus the 
negative, as I said I believe he's using the negative. If that isn't 
enough you could then float the polaroid in a tray of 105 deg(F) 
water with a very gentle stream washing over it. That releases the 
emulsion, which you can then maneuver onto a piece of glass or a 
piece of watercolor paper. This can produce quite a lot of 
distortion, which I don't see on Brandt's work, though that ripped 
layer effect could be from the water stream hitting the emulsion & 
peeling it a little.  You can do all of this without a darkroom-all 
you need do is borrow an old speed graphic and a 4x5 'roid holder, 
buy a couple boxes of film (you think inkjet paper is pricey?) and 
you're in business.

Hope some of this gives you some ideas

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale" 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> OK so I struggled with the topic heading!  I am interesting in 
creating an effect similar to that 
> used by Nick Brandt in some of his images (see  
www.nickbrandt.com ).  A good example is 
> his Rhino mother and baby" image.  I am not worried about the 
external border effect but 
> rather the liquid-like effect he has used internally close to the 
border, as if the film plate has 
> been damaged by a chemical spill. (See the top centre edge of the 
image I mentioned.  Also 
> see his "Lion Portrait" image.)  I have used the external edge 
effects in the past (using 
> Photographic Edges 6) but have not been able to figure out the 
internal edge effect.  (I hope 
> this makes sense.)  I was thinking of getting some old plate scans 
but have no idea where to 
> find some.  I was even thinking about buying some water colour 
paint and painting on the my 
> scanner glass but thought that this would not end up being 
realistic.  Any ideas or help 

> appreciated.
> 
> Steve
>

There's obviously some physically damaged film emulsion in Brandt's
process.

It varies quite a bit, and is sometimes much more than an edge
effect..it pervades as much as half the image in some instances. I
don't like what I see in some of it, like other examples a lot.

Your initial guess that he was using glass plates may be correct in
this way: He may be mounting interpositives (from his 6X7 negs...he's
a FILM guy, not a digital guy) in glass mounts, then damaging them
with heat/moisture/chems, then Photoshopping. 

He could reasonably make dozens of interpositives of each of his rare
B&W negative images, damaging them all and looking for the one that he
likes best for each original negative.  

Per Steve K, Polaroid PN could be part of one solution, and floating
emulsions off could be one approach, but having participated in that
with Ektachrome sheet film, I think that's one hell of a frustrating
way to go...and expensive. 

Since you're a digital guy and don't have a real medium format camera
(645 doesn't qualify IMO), I'd suggest you take your large fine print
to an old fashioned fanatic hobbiest that can do proper copy work and
ask him for a bunch of 6X7 or lantern slide formatted shots, of
whatever film type is convenient. Then mount them in lantern slide
glass, which can be found if you look hard enough, then go to work
destroying the edges :-)

Photoshop won't care if you're working positive or negative.