Digital BW, The Print

Hi Steve,

I guess I am the original poster. If I understand your question correctly,
the working space I always use for my grayscale images is gray gamma 2.2.
If, for various reasons, a B&W image doesn't have an embedded profile or if
the embedded profile doesn't match my working space of gray gamma 2.2 I
routinely assign, but not convert, it to gray gamma 2.2. before editing and
printing. In your opinion, is that a correct procedure?

The point I was trying to make in my original posting under the heading,
"Epson Premium Printer Profiles for B&W printing" was simply that in Epson's
announcement of the availability of some new (some people don't think they
are all that new) profiles for the Epson R2400 printer, they seem to
indicate that use of these profiles can improve the quality of  B&W prints
made with the R2400. However, when I asked Epson how the profiles could be
used with the R2400 to improve the quality of my B&W prints using the
Advanced Black and White mode, they answered by saying they couldn't, the
Epson R2400 Profiles are for color printing only.

Before I say anymore I have to make a disclaimer. I am definitely "computer
challenged" and I know it. Although I have learned how to use my computer
and printer pretty well by following step by step, cookbook style
instructions, for the most part I haven't the foggiest about how it all
works, and if the instructions, like those for Qimage, are the least bit
user unfriendly I get lost real quick.

That said, I am beginning to wonder about using any profile, even a
grayscale one made with QTR-Create-ICC, when printing with ABW on the R2400.
The reason I'm asking is because in a side by side comparison of a print
made with ABW alone and another one made the same way except with a properly
made QTR profile entered in "Print Space Profile", I can't tell the
difference between the two. Is it possible that with the R2400 once you
click on Advanced Black and White the printer software (a RIP perhaps?)
takes over and ignores any Print Space Profiles you may have entered in the
"Print With Preview" dialogue box in Photoshop. Now, before anyone (I don't
mean you Steve) answers by telling me how ignorant I am, please note that I
have already conceded that point in the above disclaimer. A simple, "No, it
doesn't work that way." with perhaps a simplified explanation as to how it
does work will be much appreciated..

Thank you,

Donald

> From: Donald Johnson <donald.johnson8@...>

> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> I guess I am the original poster. If I understand your question correctly,
> the working space I always use for my grayscale images is gray gamma 2.2.
> If, for various reasons, a B&W image doesn't have an embedded profile or if
> the embedded profile doesn't match my working space of gray gamma 2.2 I
> routinely assign, but not convert, it to gray gamma 2.2. before editing and
> printing. 

If your image has a profile but that profile is different from GG2.2 and you
like the look of the image you should convert to GG2.2 rather than assign
GG2.2.  Assigning a profile keeps the numbers the same but changes the
colour or look of the print whereas conversion changes the numbers so that
the image looks the same in the new space.

>In your opinion, is that a correct procedure?
> 
> The point I was trying to make in my original posting under the heading,
> "Epson Premium Printer Profiles for B&W printing" was simply that in Epson's
> announcement of the availability of some new (some people don't think they
> are all that new) profiles for the Epson R2400 printer, they seem to
> indicate that use of these profiles can improve the quality of  B&W prints
> made with the R2400. However, when I asked Epson how the profiles could be
> used with the R2400 to improve the quality of my B&W prints using the
> Advanced Black and White mode, they answered by saying they couldn't, the
> Epson R2400 Profiles are for color printing only.

I think the Epson reference to B&W prints was really a screw up.  Adv B&W
does not use (colour) ICC profiles.  It is not a colour managed workflow -
as intended.  QTR Create ICC does fill this gap though by making greyscale
ICC profiles which you can use with Epson Adv B&W (among other things) thus
filling this gap.  They are not the same as the colour profiles Epson posts
though.


Maybe I've become confused but I thought my "question to the original
poster" was in reference to someone who was asking about colour management
devices because their Adv B&W prints were too dark.  (If one is using Adv
B&W without colour management then workspace choice matters a lot and I
would recommend GG 2.2.)  I've probably got two threads mixed up.
> 
> Before I say anymore I have to make a disclaimer. I am definitely "computer
> challenged" and I know it. Although I have learned how to use my computer
> and printer pretty well by following step by step, cookbook style
> instructions, for the most part I haven't the foggiest about how it all
> works, and if the instructions, like those for Qimage, are the least bit
> user unfriendly I get lost real quick.

Nothing wrong with that if you have a willingness to learn.  We all start
off at zero.

> 
> That said, I am beginning to wonder about using any profile, even a
> grayscale one made with QTR-Create-ICC, when printing with ABW on the R2400.
> The reason I'm asking is because in a side by side comparison of a print
> made with ABW alone and another one made the same way except with a properly
> made QTR profile entered in "Print Space Profile", I can't tell the
> difference between the two.

The differences are likely subtle especially if GG2.2 is your workspace.  If
you converted your file to DG20 and then did the comparison you'd then see a
huge difference.


>Is it possible that with the R2400 once you
> click on Advanced Black and White the printer software (a RIP perhaps?)
> takes over and ignores any Print Space Profiles you may have entered in the
> "Print With Preview" dialogue box in Photoshop. Now, before anyone (I don't
> mean you Steve) answers by telling me how ignorant I am, please note that I
> have already conceded that point in the above disclaimer. A simple, "No, it
> doesn't work that way." with perhaps a simplified explanation as to how it
> does work will be much appreciated..

You need to separate Photoshop from the printer driver in your mind.  When
you are in Print with Preview you and your document are still in PS.  You
are setting instructions for PS to send the document to the printer (but
haven't yet done so) and to do a profile conversion just prior to doing so.
In CS2 lingo "Let Photoshop Determine Colors" by converting to "Printer
Profile" x with "Rendering Intent" y.  PS does this conversion before
sending the file to the printer driver.  The Epson Adv B&W driver doesn't
even know you did it and just picks up the converted file numbers and reacts
accordingly, printing whatever configuration of dots it has been programmed
to do for each file pixel number.  So it doesn't "ignore" the profile in the
sense you put it -  it doesn't know the conversion even took place.  It
ignores the document profile because it is not colour managed and you are
not using the printer to determine colours.  But you had PS do the colour
management anyway.


Cheers

Steve