Digital BW, The Print

Hello all

I have recently started printing B&W using Piezography and PiezoTone 
inks.

Since I joined this group I have not seen any "talk" about PiezoTone 
inks, but a lot about MIS UT inks. Is no one else in this group using 
PiezoTone inks ?

-And how does MIS inks compare to PiezoTone? IE How does the Dmax of 
Eboni Black compare to Portfolio Black? Has anybody any experience with 
this? 

FinnK

> ...
> -And how does MIS inks compare to PiezoTone? IE How does the Dmax of
> Eboni Black compare to Portfolio Black? 

Eboni is close to Museum black.  Portfolio black has some dye added to it,
which gives it a better dmax but less longevity.

The MIS UT-FS and UT-FSN inks use the PiezoBW ink densities.  The original
FS and FSN inks were designed for the Piezo driver (which I started with).
So, the MIS UT-FS and FSN are about the same as the PiezoTones.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I'm in the midst of printing my Christmas books (about 750 8x8 prints 
from 200 or so different images, bound into 9 separate volumes for 
various family members) using my C84 with EZ inks - as I did last year.  
While not the fastest printer around, I can order up the number of 
copies I need of a particular print (not every volume gets the same 
images) and do something else for a while - couldn't do that in the 
darkroom :-) .  (I've been doing this process for about 20 years - when 
I did it "wet" I had to start well before Thanksgiving, and spent many a 
night standing up in the dark into the wee hours of the morning sloshing 
paper through chemicals.  Can't imagine ever going back to that.)

The images are printed landscape at the right end of 8.5x11 paper, which 
I eventually trim down to 8.5x9 to have a binding edge on the left.  
Anyway, yesterday the printer began to "nick" the top right corner of 
the paper at the end of the print during the last 20-30 passes (the left 
side of the printer, away from the head parking station.)  This ended up 
knocking the paper slightly out of alignment for the final passes, 
curling the corner and leaving a bunch of black ink there, effectively 
ruining the print.  I have enough room on the page that I have shifted 
the image about an inch away from the end of the paper, so the image 
finishes printing before the end of the paper comes out of the rear 
rollers, but now I'm going to have to make two cuts on each page instead 
of one.

Anybody know if this "nicking" is just an adjustment, or is it a sign 
that the printer is wearing out?  (I wore one out last year that had 
gone about 1500 prints but was still within the warranty period.  Epson 
seemed astounded that I had used one of these things that much.)  I love 
the convenience of the C84/EZ combination with the CFS, and assume I 
might just have to replace this one with the current equivalent - is 
that the C86 or the C88?  Anybody know if the CFS would just transfer 
over to one of the newer printers, or would I need a new one?

Thanks for any experience and/or advice.

Cheers,
Kip

I had the same thing with my C84. It was under warranty and Epson 
checked it saying nothing was wrong. I came into conclusion it was the 
paper batch. It just curled when off of the guides and caused similar 
symptoms as you describe. Then with a new papers (I used Epson HWM) it 
worked ok, until the heads clogged and tossed it.
> Anybody know if this "nicking" is just an adjustment, or is it a sign 
> that the printer is wearing out?  (I wore one out last year that had 
> gone about 1500 prints but was still within the warranty period.  Epson 
> seemed astounded that I had used one of these things that much.)  I love 
> the convenience of the C84/EZ combination with the CFS, and assume I 
> might just have to replace this one with the current equivalent - is 
> that the C86 or the C88?  Anybody know if the CFS would just transfer 
> over to one of the newer printers, or would I need a new one?
> 
-matti

Yes, I'm using Peizotones - and have been since they replaced the 
earlier Piezo inks. Really there isn't anything to say about them. I 
switch on the printer, follow the instructions and print. And there is a 
PeizoBW group, though very few messages there.

I use the Museum black and haven't any problems with the density on 
Hahnemuhle Photorag and similar papers.
But I don't own a densitometer:-) I've yet to see anyone else produce a 
print that makes me want the bother of trying any other inks on 
Photorag, though I have made the occasional black and white on glossy 
and lustre surfaces with the Epson 2400.

The MIS inks are certainly cheaper than Piezotones, but given the cost 
of ink is a fairly small % of the print price I'm not too worried about it.

Regards,

Peter Marshall
petermarshall@...     
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......



finnkrogvig wrote:

>Hello all
>
>I have recently started printing B&W using Piezography and PiezoTone 
>inks.
>
>Since I joined this group I have not seen any "talk" about PiezoTone 
>inks, but a lot about MIS UT inks. Is no one else in this group using 
>PiezoTone inks ?
>
>-And how does MIS inks compare to PiezoTone? IE How does the Dmax of 
>Eboni Black compare to Portfolio Black? Has anybody any experience with 
>this? 
>
>FinnK
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
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> 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington 
<cbabing3@g...> wrote:

> Anybody know if this "nicking" is just an adjustment, or is it a 
sign 
> that the printer is wearing out?  

Kip,

What thickness paper are you using? My C86 gets fussy or downright 
uncooperative with papers much thicker than 11 mil or so. I've had 
damaged paper/ink "spatter" but not in the exact way you described. 
The symptoms developed after several sheets of Hanhnemuhle Photo Rag 
fed/printed just fine. Going to a somewhat reduced thickness paper 
helped but still led to damaged paper. So now I stick to 11mil or so 
papers, for the sake of the print as well as printer longevity (I do 
miss using the thicker papers though).

On a separate tangent: How are you binding the photo books? I've 
been wanting to get into this. Any references/tips for getting 
started? Are you using all archival materials?

Mitch

Mitch, I have been using EEM, whose box lists it as a 10 mil paper.  I 
know it is not "archival" but when I go through 800 sheets at a time I 
am not really prepared to pay what the truly archival papers cost.  
These prints end up being looked at on Christmas day and perhaps once or 
twice more, and then they get put on shelves for the duration.  Any 
deterioration will be due almost entirely to the nature of the inks and 
the paper, as environmental causes will only be able to affect the page 
edges.  For what these books are, that's good enough.

For binding I use the GBC plastic combs, the ones that need a line of 
rectangular holes on the edge of the paper.  I use mat board, cut about 
1/2 inch larger than the pages, for covers.  I started this process 
about 20 years ago, and that was the binding system that my law firm 
used for office purposes, and I just used it because it was available.  
After a number of years when I spent Christmas morning down at the 
office binding up books to be given away at family celebrations that 
evening, I finally bought a punch and binding machine for home, and have 
just kept using it.  It does not make a particularly elegant book, and 
if the books get too thick (which mine do, at least for the 
grandparents) the combs can want to stretch a bit.  But it is an easy 
and effective system that I can use in my (old) darkroom to organize and 
maintain a large number of photos each year for different family members.

Cheers,
Kip

mkirschner wrote:

>Kip,
>
>What thickness paper are you using? My C86 gets fussy or downright 
>uncooperative with papers much thicker than 11 mil or so. I've had 
>damaged paper/ink "spatter" but not in the exact way you described. 
>The symptoms developed after several sheets of Hanhnemuhle Photo Rag 
>fed/printed just fine. Going to a somewhat reduced thickness paper 
>helped but still led to damaged paper. So now I stick to 11mil or so 
>papers, for the sake of the print as well as printer longevity (I do 
>miss using the thicker papers though).
>
>On a separate tangent: How are you binding the photo books? I've 
>been wanting to get into this. Any references/tips for getting 
>started? Are you using all archival materials?
>
>Mitch
>  
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington 
<cbabing3@g...> wrote:

> 
> For binding I use the GBC plastic combs, the ones that need a line 
of 
> rectangular holes on the edge of the paper.  I use mat board, cut 
about 
> 1/2 inch larger than the pages, for covers.  

Kip,

Thanks for the ideas. I too produce photos for my children's 
grandparents and other relatives. It's too late (and there's not 
enough hours in the day with two very young children in the house) to 
do something this year, but next year I'd like to put something 
together. I admire your dedication. Family photo production is 
literally a labor of love (or an inescapable obligation, or both :). 

If your printer has an incurable problem, I assume you're aware that 
the latest/best "EZ" system to consider is the Epson R220, which 
according to Paul Roark (if I remember correctly from a recent post) 
is available for about $55 on eBay. When my B&W-dedicated C86 dies (I 
give it a year despite continuous TLC), that will be my next B&W 
machine.

Mitch

Thanks for the word on the R220 printer, Mitch.  Once I got my C84 up 
and running I sort of stopped keeping track of what was going on in the 
printer world.  Epson changes printer models so fast, and I didn't need 
a replacement, that I just stopped paying attention.  I actually have a 
"spare" C84 that I keep Epson color carts in, and use as an occasional 
convenience printer (my "regular" color printer is a Canon S900 for 
which I reload cartridges - a very fast printer and very refill-friendly 
cartridges.)  There was a time when the C84s were cheaper than the price 
of the ink cartridges that came with them (and one 12 hour stretch when 
you could get one from Office Depot for under $10 after all the 
applicable rebates) so I bought two for about $70 total.  I figure I can 
move the CIS over to the color printer, purge and be back in business in 
an hour or so if it comes to that.

Do you know if the R220 is any "tougher" printer than the C84 series?  
At the price I would assume not.  My impression is that the C84 design 
life is no more than a few thousand prints.

Thanks again for the thoughts.

Cheers,
Kip

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington 
> 
> Do you know if the R220 is any "tougher" printer than the C84 
series?  
> At the price I would assume not.  My impression is that the C84 
design 
> life is no more than a few thousand prints.

Kip,

I don't know if the R220 is any tougher than the C8x series, but I 
doubt it. However, it does have the feature of enabling you to print 
on CD's and DVD's (you need special optical media which is designed 
for this kind of printing).

As far as B&W printing goes, the R220 is a 6-ink printer, so the EZ 
prints are supposed to be a bit smoother (though my C86 prints are 
darn smooth). Its main appeal from my standpoint is that it 
supposedly does better black-only printing than the C8x printers, 
and you have more flexibility with the inkset. More info from Paul 
Roark here:

http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

I also recall seeing a couple of recent R220-related posts on this 
list.

I currently have two C86's, both using refillable carts. One has EZ 
inks and is dedicated to B&W printing. The other has MIS PRO inks 
(pigmented). I'm quite satisfied with both. I also have an 
inexpensive Canon Pixma printer, which makes lovely color prints, 
but alas they're not archival.

Cheers,
Mitch

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington
<cbabing3@g...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the word on the R220 printer, Mitch.  Once I got my C84 up 
> and running I sort of stopped keeping track of what was going on in the 
> printer world.  Epson changes printer models so fast, and I didn't need 
> a replacement, that I just stopped paying attention.

Kip, 

I'm amazed that you feel this way. Epson is the slowest changing, most
stable of all the printer manufacturers. Have you ever looked at Canon
or HP? They both keep a model in the lineup for about a year. Epson
seems to get about 3 years out of a model.

That's one of the biggest reasons that the GIMP print team focuses so
heavily on Epsons, because of Epson stability.

Here in the UK, the Epson 1160 is still being sold. Not sure when I 
bought my first (I own 3 as well as an R2400) but it was well over 3 
years back. Still a good printer for quadtone black and white.

Peter Marshall
petermarshall@...    
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......



koloshor wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington
><cbabing3@g...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Thanks for the word on the R220 printer, Mitch.  Once I got my C84 up 
>>and running I sort of stopped keeping track of what was going on in the 
>>printer world.  Epson changes printer models so fast, and I didn't need 
>>a replacement, that I just stopped paying attention.
>>    
>>
>
>Kip, 
>
>I'm amazed that you feel this way. Epson is the slowest changing, most
>stable of all the printer manufacturers. Have you ever looked at Canon
>or HP? They both keep a model in the lineup for about a year. Epson
>seems to get about 3 years out of a model.
>
>That's one of the biggest reasons that the GIMP print team focuses so
>heavily on Epsons, because of Epson stability.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>

I have not looked at Canon or HP lineups in years, although I do have an 
HP multifunction machine and 2 Canon 6-ink printers, all of which are 
older than my Epsons.  My impression of Epson is based on my very narrow 
experience with the C84, which I first bought in the summer of '04.  In 
the intervening 18 months, the C84 was replaced by the C86 which I 
gather has been replaced by the C88.  That struck me as a lot of 
changing in not a lot of time.  But maybe others change even faster.

Cheers,
Kip

koloshor wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington
><cbabing3@g...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Thanks for the word on the R220 printer, Mitch.  Once I got my C84 up 
>>and running I sort of stopped keeping track of what was going on in the 
>>printer world.  Epson changes printer models so fast, and I didn't need 
>>a replacement, that I just stopped paying attention.
>>    
>>
>
>Kip, 
>
>I'm amazed that you feel this way. Epson is the slowest changing, most
>stable of all the printer manufacturers. Have you ever looked at Canon
>or HP? They both keep a model in the lineup for about a year. Epson
>seems to get about 3 years out of a model.
>  
>


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