Digital BW, The Print

You may remember my post about getting a defective R2400.  Well after nearly a month of 
tribulation, I got my new printer.

It was worth the wait.  I am blown away by this thing and I haven't even begun to learn 
how to take control of the thing.  I'm very excited about this.

Now, of course I'm looking to build myself a nice "digital darkroom."  I am operating on an 
old G3 iMac!  Yikes.  So, I know enough about the computers to know what I am looking 
for.  The main question I have is what kind of monitors I should be getting.  Should I be 
using CRT or LCD?  Can I get a monitor for a PC and use an adapter or is that going to give 
me calibration problems?

And finally. . . (deep breath) if I get a G4 will I need to get some kind of card to drive a 
second monitor?  If so, where should I be looking for that?

At 11:30 PM +0000 1/25/06, Roderick Vesper wrote:
>
>You may remember my post about getting a defective R2400.  Well 
>after nearly a month of
>tribulation, I got my new printer.
>
>It was worth the wait.  I am blown away by this thing and I haven't 
>even begun to learn
>how to take control of the thing.  I'm very excited about this.

Congratulations, Rod. Me too.


>Now, of course I'm looking to build myself a nice "digital 
>darkroom."  I am operating on an
>old G3 iMac!  Yikes.  So, I know enough about the computers to know 
>what I am looking
>for.  The main question I have is what kind of monitors I should be 
>getting.  Should I be
>using CRT or LCD?  Can I get a monitor for a PC and use an adapter 
>or is that going to give
>me calibration problems?
>
>And finally. . . (deep breath) if I get a G4 will I need to get some 
>kind of card to drive a
>second monitor?  If so, where should I be looking for that?

I think a better list to get advice about the Mac-specific gear, Rod, 
is the MacEpsonList, which is also a Yahoo list.

Unless you got two video cards (to drive two CRTs) with your G3, I 
think you will need to try to find a new video card for it, but you 
might get one in a new-to-you G4 PowerMac.

I got ATI's Radeon 9200 (Mac Edition) for that because I want to try 
to pair a CRT for a Photoshop "palette monitor" with a 
pivoting/rotating LCD for an image monitor on my old 
PCI-Graphics/Yikes G4, which I think has the same motherboard as your 
(Blue and White?) G3.

I got a 17" Samsung CRT from Dell for the palette monitor. About the 
LCD image display, I'm still undecided. But I think the better 
Samsung's are a great value, whether from Samsung or from Dell, and 
that the better Eizo's are great period. We can't avoid getting 
displays made primarily for the larger Wintel market. I don't think 
you'll need an adapter. But I do think you might find displays which 
will come with software or a pivot/rotate feature which is 
Windows-only. There's some good display advice, and a lot of high-end 
video card advice, on BareFeats.com.

A good place to buy any Mac stuff you need is SmallDog.com. They're 
also willing to give you pre-sales advice on the phone. I'm not sure 
they have used G4 PowerMac's, but I think they do.

Incidentally, the new, MacTel iMac's provide for dual displays and 
seem to me competitive with the old desktops even during these 
frustrating months while we're waiting for some of our applications 
to be "universalized". But I'd keep the G3 to print from for at least 
a while yet.
--
Sam

I've been searching back through to October 2004 regarding monitors as it is finally time for me to move on to a new one and came across my very type of question from your posting about a year ago. What monitor/video card did you finally acquire if I may ask? And any recommendations for either a CRT or LCD for Windows. My perference is for a CRT, but with the obvious dwindling number of choices there, an LCD would be Plan B. Thanks in advance for any consideration you can provide on this.

  
Sam McCandless <samcc@vom.com> wrote:
  At 11:30 PM +0000 1/25/06, Roderick Vesper wrote:
>
>You may remember my post about getting a defective R2400.  Well 
>after nearly a month of
>tribulation, I got my new printer.
>
>It was worth the wait.  I am blown away by this thing and I haven't 
>even begun to learn
>how to take control of the thing.  I'm very excited about this.

Congratulations, Rod. Me too.


>Now, of course I'm looking to build myself a nice "digital 
>darkroom."  I am operating on an
>old G3 iMac!  Yikes.  So, I know enough about the computers to know 
>what I am looking
>for.  The main question I have is what kind of monitors I should be 
>getting.  Should I be
>using CRT or LCD?  Can I get a monitor for a PC and use an adapter 
>or is that going to give
>me calibration problems?
>
>And finally. . . (deep breath) if I get a G4 will I need to get some 
>kind of card to drive a
>second monitor?  If so, where should I be looking for that?

I think a better list to get advice about the Mac-specific gear, Rod, 
is the MacEpsonList, which is also a Yahoo list.

Unless you got two video cards (to drive two CRTs) with your G3, I 
think you will need to try to find a new video card for it, but you 
might get one in a new-to-you G4 PowerMac.

I got ATI's Radeon 9200 (Mac Edition) for that because I want to try 
to pair a CRT for a Photoshop "palette monitor" with a 
pivoting/rotating LCD for an image monitor on my old 
PCI-Graphics/Yikes G4, which I think has the same motherboard as your 
(Blue and White?) G3.

I got a 17" Samsung CRT from Dell for the palette monitor. About the 
LCD image display, I'm still undecided. But I think the better 
Samsung's are a great value, whether from Samsung or from Dell, and 
that the better Eizo's are great period. We can't avoid getting 
displays made primarily for the larger Wintel market. I don't think 
you'll need an adapter. But I do think you might find displays which 
will come with software or a pivot/rotate feature which is 
Windows-only. There's some good display advice, and a lot of high-end 
video card advice, on BareFeats.com.

A good place to buy any Mac stuff you need is SmallDog.com. They're 
also willing to give you pre-sales advice on the phone. I'm not sure 
they have used G4 PowerMac's, but I think they do.

Incidentally, the new, MacTel iMac's provide for dual displays and 
seem to me competitive with the old desktops even during these 
frustrating months while we're waiting for some of our applications 
to be "universalized". But I'd keep the G3 to print from for at least 
a while yet.
--
Sam



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On Dec 18, 2006, at 9:43 AM, jerry dungan wrote:

> I've been searching back through to October 2004 regarding monitors  
> as it is finally time for me to move on to a new one and came  
> across my very type of question from your posting about a year ago.  
> What monitor/video card did you finally acquire if I may ask?

None yet, Jerry; I decided to upgrade to the next (late-winter/spring  
I hear) 17-inch MacBookPro notebook as a desktop replacement and  
(necessarily) just live with whatever video card Apple puts in it.  
I'm also going to try to live with its screen as a "palette monitor".


> And any recommendations for either a CRT or LCD for Windows. My  
> perference is for a CRT, but with the obvious dwindling number of  
> choices there, an LCD would be Plan B.

No specific recommendations, but, although I feel the same way as  
you, I don't think it's practical to try to continue with a new CRT.  
So I'm looking for a good-to-excellent 19-inch 1280x1024 LCD which I  
can rotate on a Mac. I think the NEC MultiSync LCD1990SXi might be  
the best one short of an EIZO. About $715 at SmallDog.com?

But someone using Windows might also consider Samsung's 19-inch  
Syncmaster 970P for less at MonitorOutlet.com. Samsung discouraged me  
from trying to use it on a Mac.

And, from the homework I did, both Windows and Mac users might prefer  
Samsung's 21-inch SyncMaster 214T, for only a little more than the  
NEC at Monitor Outlet. At least one consultant on a MacInTouch.com  
forum said the 214T had the best text he'd seen on an LCD.

Speaking of consultants, John Vitollo is on the list and, I believe,  
uses Samsungs himself, so I hope he'll add something about using them  
in a dual-display arrangement.

Good luck, Jerry, and happy holidays.
--
Sam

> Thanks in advance for any consideration you can provide on this.
>
>
> Sam McCandless <samcc@...> wrote:
>   At 11:30 PM +0000 1/25/06, Roderick Vesper wrote:
>> [snip]

It is the same question that I currently have. Currently I am using a moderately priced Acer 19" LCD which I can't wait to  replace. Many things are wrong with it, including that text is very difficult to read and the very carefully made 
profile (s) which I have made for it (with the GreyTag McBeth Eye One) are not accurate. Even though the resulting calibration screen shows excellent "numbers" and curves. The screen image always ends up one or two stops lighter no matter how many tries using different variables that I use to calibrate the monitor

Dell has the Viewsonic G225fB which looks quite good. I will be ordering one locally for a cost of $445. It would be nice to get a "hands on" look at it but CRT's are not being shown. I would appreciate comments about this monitor before sending in an order.

If there are other monitors to consider, I am very open to suggestions.

Peter

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jerry dungan 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 12:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Finally got my printer, now questions about monitors


  I've been searching back through to October 2004 regarding monitors as it is finally time for me to move on to a new one and came across my very type of question from your posting about a year ago. What monitor/video card did you finally acquire if I may ask? And any recommendations for either a CRT or LCD for Windows. My perference is for a CRT, but with the obvious dwindling number of choices there, an LCD would be Plan B. Thanks in advance for any consideration you can provide on this.

  Sam McCandless <samcc@...> wrote:
  At 11:30 PM +0000 1/25/06, Roderick Vesper wrote:
  >
  >You may remember my post about getting a defective R2400. Well 
  >after nearly a month of
  >tribulation, I got my new printer.
  >
  >It was worth the wait. I am blown away by this thing and I haven't 
  >even begun to learn
  >how to take control of the thing. I'm very excited about this.

  Congratulations, Rod. Me too.

  >Now, of course I'm looking to build myself a nice "digital 
  >darkroom." I am operating on an
  >old G3 iMac! Yikes. So, I know enough about the computers to know 
  >what I am looking
  >for. The main question I have is what kind of monitors I should be 
  >getting. Should I be
  >using CRT or LCD? Can I get a monitor for a PC and use an adapter 
  >or is that going to give
  >me calibration problems?
  >
  >And finally. . . (deep breath) if I get a G4 will I need to get some 
  >kind of card to drive a
  >second monitor? If so, where should I be looking for that?

  I think a better list to get advice about the Mac-specific gear, Rod, 
  is the MacEpsonList, which is also a Yahoo list.

  Unless you got two video cards (to drive two CRTs) with your G3, I 
  think you will need to try to find a new video card for it, but you 
  might get one in a new-to-you G4 PowerMac.

  I got ATI's Radeon 9200 (Mac Edition) for that because I want to try 
  to pair a CRT for a Photoshop "palette monitor" with a 
  pivoting/rotating LCD for an image monitor on my old 
  PCI-Graphics/Yikes G4, which I think has the same motherboard as your 
  (Blue and White?) G3.

  I got a 17" Samsung CRT from Dell for the palette monitor. About the 
  LCD image display, I'm still undecided. But I think the better 
  Samsung's are a great value, whether from Samsung or from Dell, and 
  that the better Eizo's are great period. We can't avoid getting 
  displays made primarily for the larger Wintel market. I don't think 
  you'll need an adapter. But I do think you might find displays which 
  will come with software or a pivot/rotate feature which is 
  Windows-only. There's some good display advice, and a lot of high-end 
  video card advice, on BareFeats.com.

  A good place to buy any Mac stuff you need is SmallDog.com. They're 
  also willing to give you pre-sales advice on the phone. I'm not sure 
  they have used G4 PowerMac's, but I think they do.

  Incidentally, the new, MacTel iMac's provide for dual displays and 
  seem to me competitive with the old desktops even during these 
  frustrating months while we're waiting for some of our applications 
  to be "universalized". But I'd keep the G3 to print from for at least 
  a while yet.
  --
  Sam

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Had to jump in here. I've a Mac dual 2.7 with a dual head video card (ATI
Radeon 9650) and it drives a 20 inch Cinema Display (1680x1050) for my tool
pallets and an EIZO CG-210 (21.3 inches, 1600x1200) for images. The EIZO is
a beauty, it rotates without need of additional software, although it does
like to be calibrated in each orientation for best results. The Mac is
running 10.4.8 and it selects the correct monitor profile upon rotation.

 

The EIZO has dual DVI inputs and one USB-2 input, which is how it
communicates with the Mac and my Monaco XR DTP 94 calibration puck and
ColorEyes software. It takes advantage of EIZO's 14 bit LUT (Look Up Table)
and uses DDC(?) or DCC(?) for automatic calibration. It also has a five (5)
year warranty, but it was "pricey" at $2600 from Integrated-Color. A better
EIZO (IMHO) is the CG-220N, which displays the full Adobe RGB color space
and is slightly larger (23 inches) but was nearly $6500 when I checked last
year! Too rich for my blood.

 

I also have a PC laptop with an NVIDIA GeForce Go 6800 video card that
drives the EIZO just not as well. On the PC, w/XP Pro, I do have to install
EIZO's Rotation Utility so it will display at the correct resolution when
vertical. The PC doesn't support the 14 bit LUT or the DDC (or DCC:-)) so
calibration is more difficult to nail down. The laptop has a resolution of
1680x1050, just like the Apple Cinema display but it's 17 inches. I guess a
20 inch laptop would be pretty darn heavy!!

 

Anyway, my point is that everyone from EIZO to Integrated-Color has told me
that I'd need 2 video cards to get the best results on my PC, that's not
possible (I don't think) for a laptop, but Apples been using dual head video
cards on their better machines for years. And I hear that the new MacBookPro
you're talking about getting will have a real video card, not integrated on
the motherboard?

 

Good luck, Alan

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam
McCandless
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 11:04 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Finally got my printer, now questions about
monitors

 

On Dec 18, 2006, at 9:43 AM, jerry dungan wrote:

> I've been searching back through to October 2004 regarding monitors 
> as it is finally time for me to move on to a new one and came 
> across my very type of question from your posting about a year ago. 
> What monitor/video card did you finally acquire if I may ask?

None yet, Jerry; I decided to upgrade to the next (late-winter/spring 
I hear) 17-inch MacBookPro notebook as a desktop replacement and 
(necessarily) just live with whatever video card Apple puts in it. 
I'm also going to try to live with its screen as a "palette monitor".

> And any recommendations for either a CRT or LCD for Windows. My 
> perference is for a CRT, but with the obvious dwindling number of 
> choices there, an LCD would be Plan B.

No specific recommendations, but, although I feel the same way as 
you, I don't think it's practical to try to continue with a new CRT. 
So I'm looking for a good-to-excellent 19-inch 1280x1024 LCD which I 
can rotate on a Mac. I think the NEC MultiSync LCD1990SXi might be 
the best one short of an EIZO. About $715 at SmallDog.com? 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:00 PM, Alan Kearney wrote:

> Had to jump in here.

I'm glad you did, Alan, because I want a workstation which functions  
like yours, if at a smaller and slower level.

You mentioned having heard [snip]

> ... that the new MacBookPro
> you're talking about getting will have a real video card, not  
> integrated on
> the motherboard? ...

I hadn't heard that, but a lot of strands of development seem to be  
converging on this spring, and I've really got my hopes up for this  
MBP and some rotating LCD to go with it and Leopard. I wish it could  
be an EIZO as in your workstation. But I'm planning on a display  
which costs about half as much. And on spending the other half on a  
fast external hard drive which is small enough to carry around  
conveniently.
--
Sam

Sam, I know how tough it can be to put together the "right" system:)

My comment on the MBP video is second hand information. I'm going to  
MacWorld in SF in a few weeks and can probably get the definitive  
answer if you wish.

Alan

On Dec 18, 2006, at 11:40 PM, Sam McCandless wrote:

> On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:00 PM, Alan Kearney wrote:
>
> > Had to jump in here.
>
> I'm glad you did, Alan, because I want a workstation which functions
> like yours, if at a smaller and slower level.
>
> You mentioned having heard [snip]
>
> > ... that the new MacBookPro
> > you're talking about getting will have a real video card, not
> > integrated on
> > the motherboard? ...
>
> I hadn't heard that, but a lot of strands of development seem to be
> converging on this spring, and I've really got my hopes up for this
> MBP and some rotating LCD to go with it and Leopard. I wish it could
> be an EIZO as in your workstation. But I'm planning on a display
> which costs about half as much. And on spending the other half on a
> fast external hard drive which is small enough to carry around
> conveniently.
> --
> Sam

Thanks, Alan; if you conveniently can, I'll look forward to hearing.
--
Sam

On Dec 19, 2006, at 8:31 AM, Alan Kearney wrote:

> Sam, I know how tough it can be to put together the "right" system:)
>
> My comment on the MBP video is second hand information. I'm going to
> MacWorld in SF in a few weeks and can probably get the definitive
> answer if you wish.
>
> Alan
>
> On Dec 18, 2006, at 11:40 PM, Sam McCandless wrote:
>
>> On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:00 PM, Alan Kearney wrote:
>>
>>> [snip]

Sam. I was surprised by the lack of any monitor companies at MacWorld! I
did, however, spend a half hour with an Epson engineer and found out that
any monitor that is going to be the color correct monitor should be
connected to the number one video card, in his humble opinion:-)

 

I've a dual 2.7 G5 Mac that has a dual head Radeon video card in it and I've
always had my EIZO CG210 connected to DVI port 2. When I calibrate it the
computer and ColorEyes software and X-Rite puck take full advantage of DDC
(I think that's what it's called, maybe DCC?). Anyway, what happens is the
monitor is definitely being controlled by the calibration device and
software, even though it's not on DVI port 1.

 

Integrated-Color, the company I bought my EIZO and ColorEye software from,
has always told me if I were to run 2 monitors (Mac or PC) I'd need 2 video
cards. In the case of my Mac that's not true because the card is a dual head
card.

 

Sorry I couldn't get more info for you but I still believe you can't go
wrong with the CG line of EIZO displays. They're listed under Color Graphic
displays at EIZO's web site. The company does make a cheaper line of
monitors that may fit your bill as well.

 

Alan

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam
McCandless
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:23 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Finally got my printer, now questions about
monitors

 

Thanks, Alan; if you conveniently can, I'll look forward to hearing.
--
Sam 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks very much, Alan, for remembering my interest in the better  
LCDs as image monitors. I too am surprised that the display  
manufacturers weren't at MacWorld.

What the Epson engineer said is also a puzzle to me. In at least some  
older Mac's, there is a reason to put your image-monitor's card in  
the first slot, because it can accommodate (a 3.3 volt card with) 66  
MHz frequency (and 32-bit data width). The other three slots were 33  
MHz only. So putting the palette monitor's card in one of them is a  
better use of an old Mac's resources. But I thought it was just a  
matter of the relative need for speed, not anything to do with  
calibration or profiling.

I think you're right about the Eizo's, but I'll probably end up with  
a less expensive display.

Thanks again.
--
Sam

On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Alan Kearney wrote:

> Sam. I was surprised by the lack of any monitor companies at  
> MacWorld! I
> did, however, spend a half hour with an Epson engineer and found  
> out that
> any monitor that is going to be the color correct monitor should be
> connected to the number one video card, in his humble opinion:-)
>
> I've a dual 2.7 G5 Mac that has a dual head Radeon video card in it  
> and I've
> always had my EIZO CG210 connected to DVI port 2. When I calibrate  
> it the
> computer and ColorEyes software and X-Rite puck take full advantage  
> of DDC
> (I think that's what it's called, maybe DCC?). Anyway, what happens  
> is the
> monitor is definitely being controlled by the calibration device and
> software, even though it's not on DVI port 1.
>
> Integrated-Color, the company I bought my EIZO and ColorEye  
> software from,
> has always told me if I were to run 2 monitors (Mac or PC) I'd need  
> 2 video
> cards. In the case of my Mac that's not true because the card is a  
> dual head
> card.
>
> Sorry I couldn't get more info for you but I still believe you  
> can't go
> wrong with the CG line of EIZO displays. They're listed under Color  
> Graphic
> displays at EIZO's web site. The company does make a cheaper line of
> monitors that may fit your bill as well.
>
> Alan