Digital BW, The Print

I have done an extensive search of this list regarding printing on a
4800 using ABW. Many thanks from my side to all contributors - there
is a huge wealth of data in there!! I have learned from several posts
that you could (and should) use QTR Create ICC in the ABW workflow. 

In Message 67818 Steve writes: 

"...QTR Create ICC is a much more sensible approach:  measure and
profile the stimulus-response behaviour of the printer IN ABW MODE and
have PS use that profile to adjust image file data prior to it being
sent to the printer. .."

So just to make sure I get this idea correctly: I prepare an ICC Curve
using QTR following the instructions and printing through the ABW
driver. This would be a QTR Profile for a particular paper and ink
combination and also particular settings in ABW. Then I take an image
file (in my default workspace G = 2,2) convert this file in PS to the
QTR Profile just prepared and send this file to ABW using 'same es
source' in 'Print with Preview'. 

Would someone please check my reasoning and let me know if there are
any inconsistencies?

Thank you in advance for your advice
Juraj
www.lipscher.ch

Dear juray,
I have read msg #67818 and your post and, frakly speaking, I am confused by this approach. Using an ICC profile AND ABW means that you are color managing twice, spreading color management between PS (with the ICC profile) and your printer driver (with ABW mode). I am not sure the approch is correct (I think it is as long as you scan a target printed in ABW mode) but certainly it ties you to a specific printer (your 4800). many people with large printers (and expensive inks) do ther print test using smaller and cheap ink printers (i.e. the R220) befor going to the final print.
A more consistent approach would be:
1) Print your target with no color managemnet in PS nor in your printer
2) scan
3) creahe the ICC file
4) print your work in PS with color management assigned to PS, using your ICC for the printer and no ICC management in you printer driver

Regards
  Daniela

jurajlipscher <juraj@...> wrote:     I have done an extensive search of this list regarding printing on a
 4800 using ABW. Many thanks from my side to all contributors - there
 is a huge wealth of data in there!! I have learned from several posts
 that you could (and should) use QTR Create ICC in the ABW workflow. 
 
 In Message 67818 Steve writes: 
 
 "...QTR Create ICC is a much more sensible approach:  measure and
 profile the stimulus-response behaviour of the printer IN ABW MODE and
 have PS use that profile to adjust image file data prior to it being
 sent to the printer. .."
 
 So just to make sure I get this idea correctly: I prepare an ICC Curve
 using QTR following the instructions and printing through the ABW
 driver. This would be a QTR Profile for a particular paper and ink
 combination and also particular settings in ABW. Then I take an image
 file (in my default workspace G = 2,2) convert this file in PS to the
 QTR Profile just prepared and send this file to ABW using 'same es
 source' in 'Print with Preview'. 
 
 Would someone please check my reasoning and let me know if there are
 any inconsistencies?
 
 Thank you in advance for your advice
 Juraj
 www.lipscher.ch
 
 
 
 
 
      

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Juraj




> From: jurajlipscher <juraj@...>

> 
> I have done an extensive search of this list regarding printing on a
> 4800 using ABW. Many thanks from my side to all contributors - there
> is a huge wealth of data in there!! I have learned from several posts
> that you could (and should) use QTR Create ICC in the ABW workflow.

You don't have to but if you have the equipment to do so it makes sense for
two reasons:
1.  you get an ICC profile that accurately soft proofs your Adv B&W
settings, both hue and luminance management
2.  you get a more sensible management of the luminance compression from
image file (typically running from perfect black to perfect white) to the
print space (imperfect black and imperfect white).

Think of it as doing the same thing we do for colour but with just one
intent, perceptual.  So we measure what the printer produces in response to
various stimulus and use those observations to create a profile of the
printer's performance.
> 
> In Message 67818 Steve writes:
> 
> "...QTR Create ICC is a much more sensible approach:  measure and
> profile the stimulus-response behaviour of the printer IN ABW MODE and
> have PS use that profile to adjust image file data prior to it being
> sent to the printer. .."
> 
> So just to make sure I get this idea correctly: I prepare an ICC Curve
> using QTR following the instructions and printing through the ABW
> driver. This would be a QTR Profile for a particular paper and ink
> combination and also particular settings in ABW. Then I take an image
> file (in my default workspace G = 2,2) convert this file in PS to the
> QTR Profile just prepared and send this file to ABW using 'same es
> source' in 'Print with Preview'.

You first print a test target with No Color Management (CS2 speak -as you
would for a colour profile).  Say a 51 step wedge with your favourite ABW
settings.  (I just did 4 profiles for my warm settings, horiz/vertical 10-10
10-15 10-20 15-20 20-20.) I just leave all the settings at their default and
adjust the hue picker.

You then measure the target with your EyeOne or other spectrophotometer or
densitometer (the latter only gives you luminance management and not hue
soft proofing).

Then feed this data (drag and drop if from an EyeOne) into QTR Create ICC.
Out pops your ICC profile.

When you come to printing images, you select Let Photoshop Determine Colors
so that PS is used to convert your document profile on the fly from, say GG
2.2, to the output profile you made above using the Perceptual Intent and
Black Point Compensation.

You set up PS soft proofs in the normal fashion.

Hope this helps

Steve

An edit below to clear up Daniela's point:


> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:39:01 +0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Conversation: [Digital BW] ABW and QTR Create ICC
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ABW and QTR Create ICC
> 
> Hi Juraj
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: jurajlipscher <juraj@...>
> 
>> 
>> I have done an extensive search of this list regarding printing on a
>> 4800 using ABW. Many thanks from my side to all contributors - there
>> is a huge wealth of data in there!! I have learned from several posts
>> that you could (and should) use QTR Create ICC in the ABW workflow.
> 
> You don't have to but if you have the equipment to do so it makes sense for
> two reasons:
> 1.  you get an ICC profile that accurately soft proofs your Adv B&W
> settings, both hue and luminance management
> 2.  you get a more sensible management of the luminance compression from
> image file (typically running from perfect black to perfect white) to the
> print space (imperfect black and imperfect white).
> 
> Think of it as doing the same thing we do for colour but with just one
> intent, perceptual.  So we measure what the printer produces in response to
> various stimulus and use those observations to create a profile of the
> printer's performance.
>> 
>> In Message 67818 Steve writes:
>> 
>> "...QTR Create ICC is a much more sensible approach:  measure and
>> profile the stimulus-response behaviour of the printer IN ABW MODE and
>> have PS use that profile to adjust image file data prior to it being
>> sent to the printer. .."
>> 
>> So just to make sure I get this idea correctly: I prepare an ICC Curve
>> using QTR following the instructions and printing through the ABW
>> driver. This would be a QTR Profile for a particular paper and ink
>> combination and also particular settings in ABW. Then I take an image
>> file (in my default workspace G = 2,2) convert this file in PS to the
>> QTR Profile just prepared and send this file to ABW using 'same es
>> source' in 'Print with Preview'.
> 
> You first print a test target with No Color Management (CS2 speak -as you
> would for a colour profile).  Say a 51 step wedge with your favourite ABW
> settings.  (I just did 4 profiles for my warm settings, horiz/vertical 10-10
> 10-15 10-20 15-20 20-20.) I just leave all the settings at their default and
> adjust the hue picker.
> 
> You then measure the target with your EyeOne or other spectrophotometer or
> densitometer (the latter only gives you luminance management and not hue
> soft proofing).
> 
> Then feed this data (drag and drop if from an EyeOne) into QTR Create ICC.
> Out pops your ICC profile.
> 
> When you come to printing images, you select Let Photoshop Determine Colors
> so that PS is used to convert your document profile on the fly from, say GG
> 2.2, to the output profile you made above using the Perceptual Intent and
> Black Point Compensation.

Then in the Advanced B&W driver settings you need to make sure they are the
same settings for which you made the ICC profile (obviously, because the
profile profiled the printer output with those settings).  So the hue etc
must be set consistent with the profile.

Epson Adv B&W does not colour manage anything.  It's just a set of driver
settings.  The bit that is missing from Epson Adv B&W is profiling the
output of each set of settings and using this for luminance management and
soft proofing.  It is exactly this gap that is plugged by QTR Create ICC.
The output part of the ICC profile does not manage colour - only luminance.
This is how it differs from a colour profile prepared by a normal profiling
package.  The input (soft proofing) part of the profile has colour and
luminance information so that you see both the hue of the print in the
soft-proof as well as the effect of the luminance management.

> 
> You set up PS soft proofs in the normal fashion.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Steve

> You first print a test target with No Color Management (CS2 speak -as you
> would for a colour profile).  Say a 51 step wedge with your favourite ABW
> settings.  (I just did 4 profiles for my warm settings, horiz/vertical 10-10
> 10-15 10-20 15-20 20-20.) I just leave all the settings at their default and
> adjust the hue picker.
> Steve

Steve,

What "Tone" setting are you using in ABW? Darker? Normal? Other? I'm just wonder if 
"Tone" settings affect d-max?

Do you find that the 51 step wedge is more accurate than the 21 step wedge?

I anyone one is interested ColorVision's PrintFix Pro will read Lab and Density for QTR and 
IJC/OPM. There is a public beta of the advanced software if you own PrintFix Pro and 
contact CDTobie.

Join this group and read CDTobie's post:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colorvision_group/message/8

I started the above group to assist one another with PrintFix Pro. I was mostly interested in 
the Lab/Density reading capabilities of PrintFix Pro but finding it builds excellent color 
profiles.

I have no affiliation with ColorVision...just a very happy customer. 

Best,

John V.

"John Vitollo"  wrote pre-coffee:

> I anyone one is 

Should read "If anyone is......

> From: John Vitollo <jvlist@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:45:51 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ABW and QTR Create ICC
> 
>> You first print a test target with No Color Management (CS2 speak -as you
>> would for a colour profile).  Say a 51 step wedge with your favourite ABW
>> settings.  (I just did 4 profiles for my warm settings, horiz/vertical 10-10
>> 10-15 10-20 15-20 20-20.) I just leave all the settings at their default and
>> adjust the hue picker.
>> Steve
> 
> Steve,
> 
> What "Tone" setting are you using in ABW? Darker? Normal? Other? I'm just
> wonder if 
> "Tone" settings affect d-max?

That doesn't matter because it is profiled and hence any setting would get
mapped out again by colour management.  I just leave everything at Epson's
intended default settings (ie darker) and only play with the hue picker.
Tone does not affect dMax but is rather a gamma type function.

(I generally credit Epson with the common sense to set their defaults at
settings which produce optimal results out of the box (with the widely-used
Adobe RGB/GG 2.2 workspace).  This is borne out by my experience.
Nonetheless, as I mentioned it doesn't matter in this case because we are
deploying colour management.)

> 
> Do you find that the 51 step wedge is more accurate than the 21 step wedge?

I actually use 101...quite probably unnecessary.  I think 51 would be the
min.

Cheers 

Steve