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Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver Rag

Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver Rag

2006-02-26 by Steve Gledhill

Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss (aka DaVinci Fibre Gloss \ufffd so 
we\ufffdre led to believe) side by side with Crane Museo Silver Rag

Today I acquired two new papers - a box of the PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss 
and just 4 sheets (letter size) of Crane Museo Silver Rag (don\ufffdt ask). 
So the first thing I wanted to do was try them out to compare them side 
by side.

Here\ufffds what I did:
Profiled both papers with my i1 and QTR-Create-ICC \ufffd hair dryered for speed.
Chose a B&W image with lots of shadow and highlight detail and a full 
range of tones.
Printed the same image (size 16cm x 20 cm) on each paper on my 4800 with 
K3 (PK) inks using \ufffdLet Photoshop Determine Colors\ufffd using Rendering 
Intent = Perceptual and Black Point Compensation. ABW settings were for 
Premium SemiGloss Photo Paper (250) at 2880dpi, Neutral, Darker \ufffd no tints.

Results:

The paper bases are very different. The PFBG (295gsm) is a bright white 
compared to the pale cream CMSR (300gsm). The surfaces are very 
different too. The PFBG is to my eye much more like a silver fibre paper 
\ufffd smoother than the CMSR - but still with a very light random-ish 
texture (although there is a faint longitudinal texture too - not so 
nice). The CMSR has a finer more even texture. Both very attractive \ufffd 
PFBG is whiter and smoother compared with fine textured creamy CMSR. 
Neither looks like an RC type texture. Comparing the gloss from both I\ufffdd 
say the PFBG looks a little more glossy \ufffd the finer texture of the CMSR 
seems to diffuse the gloss just a little more. It\ufffds nice to have a 
choice. Both papers were sheets from A4 or letter size boxes and both 
papers curl slightly \ufffd coated side in. Both feel hefty and stiff.

I have been told \ufffd but cannot verify - that the CMSR is 100% cotton rag 
with no optical brighteners and that the PFBG is \ufffdfibre based\ufffd but not 
cotton and it contains optical brighteners.

DMax for PFBG is 2.6, DMax for CMSR is 2.5, both measured with my i1.

Both images exhibit a similar degree of gloss differential. As far as 
bronzing is concerned it appears to be present but as it is now evening 
in the UK and I don\ufffdt have access to daylight (real or artificial) I\ufffdll 
have to wait until tomorrow to get a better view. In fact everything I 
have to say from here on is based on fresh-off-the-printer prints viewed 
in bright tungsten light.

So what do images look like? The image is one I like a great deal and 
know very well so I am very critical when viewing it. Both are superb 
and both satisfy my critical examination. They are both sharp, both 
render all of the details in the shadows and highlights just as I see 
them on my fully profiled monitor. There is a very slight difference in 
contrast in the two images with the CMSR having just perceptibly higher 
contrast \ufffd but given my rush to see the results of the two papers I\ufffdm 
happy to get these results so quickly. I anticipate further tweaking to 
get everything just the way I want.

I have absolutely no knowledge or information about that other critical 
factor \ufffd longevity and fade resistance.

I can\ufffdt say yet which I prefer \ufffd but it\ufffds great for there to be a 
further significant step in the choice of papers available to us. And I 
must say that it\ufffds great to hold some of my work on papers that at least 
remind me of my darkroom days printing with Ilford MG FB and the like. 
They\ufffdre not the same, and I don\ufffdt want them to be, but there is 
something of that look and feel about them.

Steve Gledhill
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/


	
	
		
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Re: Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver Rag

2006-02-26 by Clayton Jones

>Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss (aka DaVinci Fibre Gloss 
>– so we're led to believe) side by side with Crane Museo Silver Rag

Excellent report, Steve.  Thanks very much.

How about abrasion and scuff resistance?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver Rag

2006-02-26 by Steve Gledhill

I just abused both the 51-step patches with my tough old thumbnail - the 
paper surface seems very resistant on both; it does abrade the surface 
(it is paper after all), but it has almost no visible effect on the inks 
... ! Both papers seem the same in this (not very) scientific test.
Steve Gledhill
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/

Clayton Jones wrote:

> >Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss (aka DaVinci Fibre Gloss
> >\ufffd so we're led to believe) side by side with Crane Museo Silver Rag
>
> Excellent report, Steve. Thanks very much.
>
> How about abrasion and scuff resistance?
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton


		
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Clayton Jones Photo For Sale

2006-02-26 by Yoelis Diaz

Hi.
  Clayton Jones  I was looking in your Wed Site for one sample of B/W  land scape is Velvet Fine Art with K3 ink. But you only has one interior photo. Please if you has difference picture like this one 1023 - Istokpoga Creek  let me know .I want to buy one photo sample  in K3 ink.
  Thank you.
  Yoelis.

		
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Re: Clayton Jones Photo For Sale

2006-02-27 by Clayton Jones

Hello Yoelis,

Thanks for your inquiry.  I sent a reply by email.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver Rag

2006-02-28 by Steve Gledhill

A couple of things to add to my post of a couple of days ago - below.  
The bronzing is almost non existent on both of my sample prints.  I also 
noted on a separate post that they both pass my ink / thumbnail test - 
but, I have now noticed that when I wiped over the two prints with a 
cloth (very firmly in a circular motion) the PermaJet Fibre Glossy 
showed definite signs of light abrasion compared with the Crane Museo 
Silver Rag.  This was 24 hours after I made the prints.  So, first 
impression here is that the surface of the PFBG is more susceptible to 
abrasion than the CMSR.  But again these are NOT scientific tests - just 
how very firm is very firm!?

Having had the prints for a couple of days now I definitely prefer the 
warm tone and the finish of the Silver Rag compared to the Permajet.  
It's gorgeous.  But that's preference.  If the surface is genuinely 
tougher then that's a bonus.

Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/

--------------------------------------------------------

Steve Gledhill wrote:

>Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss (aka DaVinci Fibre Gloss \ufffd so 
>we\ufffdre led to believe) side by side with Crane Museo Silver Rag
>
>Today I acquired two new papers - a box of the PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss 
>and just 4 sheets (letter size) of Crane Museo Silver Rag (don\ufffdt ask). 
>So the first thing I wanted to do was try them out to compare them side 
>by side.
>
>Here\ufffds what I did:
>Profiled both papers with my i1 and QTR-Create-ICC \ufffd hair dryered for speed.
>Chose a B&W image with lots of shadow and highlight detail and a full 
>range of tones.
>Printed the same image (size 16cm x 20 cm) on each paper on my 4800 with 
>K3 (PK) inks using \ufffdLet Photoshop Determine Colors\ufffd using Rendering 
>Intent = Perceptual and Black Point Compensation. ABW settings were for 
>Premium SemiGloss Photo Paper (250) at 2880dpi, Neutral, Darker \ufffd no tints.
>
>Results:
>
>The paper bases are very different. The PFBG (295gsm) is a bright white 
>compared to the pale cream CMSR (300gsm). The surfaces are very 
>different too. The PFBG is to my eye much more like a silver fibre paper 
>\ufffd smoother than the CMSR - but still with a very light random-ish 
>texture (although there is a faint longitudinal texture too - not so 
>nice). The CMSR has a finer more even texture. Both very attractive \ufffd 
>PFBG is whiter and smoother compared with fine textured creamy CMSR. 
>Neither looks like an RC type texture. Comparing the gloss from both I\ufffdd 
>say the PFBG looks a little more glossy \ufffd the finer texture of the CMSR 
>seems to diffuse the gloss just a little more. It\ufffds nice to have a 
>choice. Both papers were sheets from A4 or letter size boxes and both 
>papers curl slightly \ufffd coated side in. Both feel hefty and stiff.
>
>I have been told \ufffd but cannot verify - that the CMSR is 100% cotton rag 
>with no optical brighteners and that the PFBG is \ufffdfibre based\ufffd but not 
>cotton and it contains optical brighteners.
>
>DMax for PFBG is 2.6, DMax for CMSR is 2.5, both measured with my i1.
>
>Both images exhibit a similar degree of gloss differential. As far as 
>bronzing is concerned it appears to be present but as it is now evening 
>in the UK and I don\ufffdt have access to daylight (real or artificial) I\ufffdll 
>have to wait until tomorrow to get a better view. In fact everything I 
>have to say from here on is based on fresh-off-the-printer prints viewed 
>in bright tungsten light.
>
>So what do images look like? The image is one I like a great deal and 
>know very well so I am very critical when viewing it. Both are superb 
>and both satisfy my critical examination. They are both sharp, both 
>render all of the details in the shadows and highlights just as I see 
>them on my fully profiled monitor. There is a very slight difference in 
>contrast in the two images with the CMSR having just perceptibly higher 
>contrast \ufffd but given my rush to see the results of the two papers I\ufffdm 
>happy to get these results so quickly. I anticipate further tweaking to 
>get everything just the way I want.
>
>I have absolutely no knowledge or information about that other critical 
>factor \ufffd longevity and fade resistance.
>
>I can\ufffdt say yet which I prefer \ufffd but it\ufffds great for there to be a 
>further significant step in the choice of papers available to us. And I 
>must say that it\ufffds great to hold some of my work on papers that at least 
>remind me of my darkroom days printing with Ilford MG FB and the like. 
>They\ufffdre not the same, and I don\ufffdt want them to be, but there is 
>something of that look and feel about them.
>
>Steve Gledhill
>http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/
>

		
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Clayton Jones Photo For Sale

2006-03-04 by Yoelis Diaz

Hi.
  I recived the photo is  very nice!!  and good challenge for me.
  Thank you.

Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote:
  Hello Yoelis,

Thanks for your inquiry.  I sent a reply by email.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm





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Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver Rag

2006-03-05 by Steve Gledhill

After a few more prints I've now seen how susceptible to abrasion of the 
surface the PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss is.  When feeding A3 paper from 
the tray the first few inches of the surface have light scuff marks as 
the roller picks up the paper - on my 4800.  I had adjusted the printer 
for the thicker paper so was surprised to see this.  When fed from the 
rear there is no scuffing.  This is the first of the heavier papers that 
I've used so what I'm reporting may be a problem with other thicker 
papers too - anyone?  But it is very disappointing to have to feed 
manually - or use a roll.  I didn't see this on the 4 sheets of Crane 
Museo Silver Rag that I got my hands on - its weight is almost the same 
as the PermaJet.
Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/

Steve Gledhill wrote:

>A couple of things to add to my post of a couple of days ago - below.  
>The bronzing is almost non existent on both of my sample prints.  I also 
>noted on a separate post that they both pass my ink / thumbnail test - 
>but, I have now noticed that when I wiped over the two prints with a 
>cloth (very firmly in a circular motion) the PermaJet Fibre Glossy 
>showed definite signs of light abrasion compared with the Crane Museo 
>Silver Rag.  This was 24 hours after I made the prints.  So, first 
>impression here is that the surface of the PFBG is more susceptible to 
>abrasion than the CMSR.  But again these are NOT scientific tests - just 
>how very firm is very firm!?
>
>Having had the prints for a couple of days now I definitely prefer the 
>warm tone and the finish of the Silver Rag compared to the Permajet.  
>It's gorgeous.  But that's preference.  If the surface is genuinely 
>tougher then that's a bonus.
>
>Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/
>

		
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Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver

2006-03-05 by john dean

Yea, I've been tossing around all my tests on Silver Rag and I've yet
to see one scratch or scuff mark on any of them. Their Museo Max paper
is also very tough, which is what I like about it, though I'm not
happy with that papers ability to absorb a lot of black without
bleeding. We just need a little bit smoother surface on the Silver Rag
to cut down on that sheen and we'll really be in business.

john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Gledhill
<stephengledhill@...> wrote:
>
> After a few more prints I've now seen how susceptible to abrasion of
the 
> surface the PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss is.  When feeding A3 paper from 
> the tray the first few inches of the surface have light scuff marks as 
> the roller picks up the paper - on my 4800.  I had adjusted the printer 
> for the thicker paper so was surprised to see this.  When fed from the 
> rear there is no scuffing.  This is the first of the heavier papers
that 
> I've used so what I'm reporting may be a problem with other thicker 
> papers too - anyone?  But it is very disappointing to have to feed 
> manually - or use a roll.  I didn't see this on the 4 sheets of Crane 
> Museo Silver Rag that I got my hands on - its weight is almost the same 
> as the PermaJet.
> Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/
> 
> Steve Gledhill wrote:
> 
> >A couple of things to add to my post of a couple of days ago - below.  
> >The bronzing is almost non existent on both of my sample prints.  I
also 
> >noted on a separate post that they both pass my ink / thumbnail test - 
> >but, I have now noticed that when I wiped over the two prints with a 
> >cloth (very firmly in a circular motion) the PermaJet Fibre Glossy 
> >showed definite signs of light abrasion compared with the Crane Museo 
> >Silver Rag.  This was 24 hours after I made the prints.  So, first 
> >impression here is that the surface of the PFBG is more susceptible to 
> >abrasion than the CMSR.  But again these are NOT scientific tests -
just 
> >how very firm is very firm!?
> >
> >Having had the prints for a couple of days now I definitely prefer the 
> >warm tone and the finish of the Silver Rag compared to the Permajet.  
> >It's gorgeous.  But that's preference.  If the surface is genuinely 
> >tougher then that's a bonus.
> >
> >Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/
> >
> 
> 		
> ___________________________________________________________ 
> NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used
cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/
>

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver

2006-03-05 by Carl Schofield

I'm hoping that the new Hahnemuhle paper will be "the one"  in this  
class.  Other than a mention on the LLS site I've heard no comments  
on characteristics of this new paper.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mar 5, 2006, at 1:06 PM, john dean wrote:

>
> Yea, I've been tossing around all my tests on Silver Rag and I've yet
> to see one scratch or scuff mark on any of them. Their Museo Max paper
> is also very tough, which is what I like about it, though I'm not
> happy with that papers ability to absorb a lot of black without
> bleeding. We just need a little bit smoother surface on the Silver Rag
> to cut down on that sheen and we'll really be in business.
>
> john
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Gledhill
> <stephengledhill@...> wrote:
>>
>> After a few more prints I've now seen how susceptible to abrasion of
> the
>> surface the PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss is.  When feeding A3 paper from
>> the tray the first few inches of the surface have light scuff  
>> marks as
>> the roller picks up the paper - on my 4800.  I had adjusted the  
>> printer
>> for the thicker paper so was surprised to see this.  When fed from  
>> the
>> rear there is no scuffing.  This is the first of the heavier papers
> that
>> I've used so what I'm reporting may be a problem with other thicker
>> papers too - anyone?  But it is very disappointing to have to feed
>> manually - or use a roll.  I didn't see this on the 4 sheets of Crane
>> Museo Silver Rag that I got my hands on - its weight is almost the  
>> same
>> as the PermaJet.
>> Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/
>>
>> Steve Gledhill wrote:
>>
>>> A couple of things to add to my post of a couple of days ago -  
>>> below.
>>> The bronzing is almost non existent on both of my sample prints.  I
> also
>>> noted on a separate post that they both pass my ink / thumbnail  
>>> test -
>>> but, I have now noticed that when I wiped over the two prints with a
>>> cloth (very firmly in a circular motion) the PermaJet Fibre Glossy
>>> showed definite signs of light abrasion compared with the Crane  
>>> Museo
>>> Silver Rag.  This was 24 hours after I made the prints.  So, first
>>> impression here is that the surface of the PFBG is more  
>>> susceptible to
>>> abrasion than the CMSR.  But again these are NOT scientific tests -
> just
>>> how very firm is very firm!?
>>>
>>> Having had the prints for a couple of days now I definitely  
>>> prefer the
>>> warm tone and the finish of the Silver Rag compared to the Permajet.
>>> It's gorgeous.  But that's preference.  If the surface is genuinely
>>> tougher then that's a bonus.
>>>
>>> Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/
>>>

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver

2006-03-06 by alanrew42

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Gledhill
<stephengledhill@...> wrote:
>
> After a few more prints I've now seen how susceptible to abrasion of
the 
> surface the PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss is.  When feeding A3 paper from 
> the tray the first few inches of the surface have light scuff marks as 
> the roller picks up the paper - on my 4800.  I had adjusted the printer 
> for the thicker paper so was surprised to see this.  When fed from the 
> rear there is no scuffing.  This is the first of the heavier papers
that 
> I've used so what I'm reporting may be a problem with other thicker 
> papers too - anyone?  But it is very disappointing to have to feed 
> manually - or use a roll.  I didn't see this on the 4 sheets of Crane 
> Museo Silver Rag that I got my hands on - its weight is almost the same 
> as the PermaJet.

Steve,

I had exactly the same problem with Da Vinci Fibre Gloss (which, we
have been led to believe, is the same paper, made by Innova) in my
Epson 2100/2200. 

When feeding A4 sized sheets via the normal feed path, there is a
squealing noise (like tyre squeal when a car tyre spins on
acceleration) before the paper is picked up by the rollers. This
problem was reduced by cleaning the rollers - BTW I'd previously been
using Hahnemuhle Photo Rag which I think leaves some dust on the
rollers, reducing their effectiveness. When the problem occurs there
are very clear scuff marks where the rollers have been spinning
against the paper. I've never had this problem with any non-matte
paper I've used before. I too didn't want to use the rear feed slot so
relied on keeping the rollers clean.

I've given up with this paper anyway, because the results with Epson
UC inks in the 2100/2200 are nothing special anyway. Can't get dark
enough blacks (see earlier posts regarding L* values with PSG media
setting at 2880 dpi).

Regards,

Alan

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver

2006-03-06 by Steve Kale

Are you sure that you set the paper lever to the envelope position when
using the rear loader for thicker paper?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: alanrew42 <Alan-Rew@...>

> When feeding A4 sized sheets via the normal feed path, there is a
> squealing noise (like tyre squeal when a car tyre spins on
> acceleration) before the paper is picked up by the rollers.

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of PermaJet Fibre Base Gloss with Crane Museo Silver

2006-03-06 by alanrew42

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@...> wrote:
>
> Are you sure that you set the paper lever to the envelope position when
> using the rear loader for thicker paper?
> 

Hi Steve,

Yes, and this makes no difference. I think the stiffness of the paper
is also a factor, because when feeding A5 sized sheets this problem
hardly ever happens, presumably because the smaller sheets are easier
to bend. I think using the rear feed path is the only reliable
solution in the 2100/2200.

The silky-smooth paper surface on DaVinci FG is obviously uniquely
slippery, although having dust on your rollers doesn't help.

On the subject of HPR leaving dust on the rollers, IMO Hahnemuhle
should provide a free roller cleaning sheet with each packet of their
paper!

Regards,

Alan

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