Digital BW, The Print

>Are the VM and FS Black cartridges interchangeable?  

Yes, they are the same ink.

Paul 
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Yes, ALL mis inks are interchangeable, dye and pigments.

Jerry




rwhillman wrote:

> 
> Are the VM and FS Black cartridges interchangeable?  I have some FS
> black left over and would like try VM
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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Just on this one - i have some Piezo black to use up - I never had clogs
with it - will this interchange in FS?

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] VM vs. FS Black


> Yes, ALL mis inks are interchangeable, dye and pigments.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> rwhillman wrote:
> >
> > Are the VM and FS Black cartridges interchangeable?  I have some FS
> > black left over and would like try VM
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I have used MIS inks mixed with piezo inks and had no troubles.

Jerry



Julian Thomas wrote:

> 
> Just on this one - i have some Piezo black to use up - I never had clogs
> with it - will this interchange in FS?
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 10:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] VM vs. FS Black
> 
> > Yes, ALL mis inks are interchangeable, dye and pigments.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > rwhillman wrote:
> > >
> > > Are the VM and FS Black cartridges interchangeable?  I have some FS
> > > black left over and would like try VM
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Just wanted to clarify something here.

MIS VM and FS blacks are the same as each other and appear to me to be
identical to Piezo black.  However, I can't say whether they actually are
the same ink as Piezo black.

MIS and Piezo inks appear compatible, in that there does not seem to be any
reactions that would cause clogging, as far as I can tell.

MIS FS and VM inks other than the black inks are different and not
interchangeable with each other.  The VM and FS magentas are essentially the
same densities, but the FS inks are slightly less warm.  They, of course,
are compatible in that mixing will not cause clogs.

Piezo midtones have the same densities as the new FS inks.  However, MIS and
Piezo midtones are quite different inks.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul-

I DON'T want to start a round of Piezo ink bashing... But I have a 
question from your statements about the similarities of the inks...

If they are so similar, why do you think there have been issues of 
Piezo clogging and then the MIS inks working on the same 
printer...and I assume there is some printer/piezo combination that 
is just not working right since so many others have used piezo with 
no problems at all.

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Just wanted to clarify something here.
> 
> MIS VM and FS blacks are the same as each other and appear to me to 
be
> identical to Piezo black.  However, I can't say whether they 
actually are
> the same ink as Piezo black.
> 
> MIS and Piezo inks appear compatible, in that there does not seem 
to be any
> reactions that would cause clogging, as far as I can tell.
> 
> MIS FS and VM inks other than the black inks are different and not
> interchangeable with each other.  The VM and FS magentas are 
essentially the
> same densities, but the FS inks are slightly less warm.  They, of 
course,
> are compatible in that mixing will not cause clogs.
> 
> Piezo midtones have the same densities as the new FS inks.  
However, MIS and

> Piezo midtones are quite different inks.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Tom,

You wrote:

>I DON'T want to start a round of Piezo ink bashing...But ...

>If [Piezo & MIS FS] are so similar, why do you think there
>have been issues of
>Piezo clogging and then the MIS inks working on the same
>printer...

I'm not sure, but I have several theories.

I think one of the main differences is that the Piezo midtones -- where the
problems seem to be mostly -- use the co-solvent ink.  (This is the source
of the bad smell.)  This ink is both more volatile than the base that MIS
uses in the midtone inks and it, according to one article, causes more ink
crystal "aggregation" (clumping), in part because it is a less effective
solvent.

So, the more volatile nature may make it more subject to loose CIS fittings
and drying on the heads.

As the solvent evaporates around the CIS, it may pull the soluble greenish
dye out with it and deposit it around the CIS.  Perhaps it also concentrates
it in the ink near the outlet.

MIS midtones, lacking the dye and the volatile co-solvent may be much less
subject to these problems.

MIS VM and FS black inks do use the co-solvent.   My sense is that neither
the Piezo more MIS VM or FS blacks have serious problems.  Since the black
ink does not have the greenish dye, it may be that the dye is a big part of
the problem.

The co-solvent aggregation may be happening too soon -- like in the heads or
on the screens in the heads.  Some CISs had the screens in them that the MIS
CFSs have.  I consider these screens important to have.  However, the
co-solvent plus dye combo might have been clogging this screen, letting more
of the soluble greenish dye through than the pigment particles.  This could
have been the source of the "green" problem.

I'm, of course, simply speculating.  However, I think the co-solvent and dye
combination in the midtone inks is the source of the trouble.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul-

I'd almost forgotten the smell issue (how quickly we forget...this 
was overwhelming me in my fairly small converted wet darkroom). 

Your theory is the first one I've heard that squares with common 
sense... A solvent difference is about the only component that 
explains dramatically different results with the same model printer 
by different users. 

I keep having this nagging feeling that I really didn't try every 
single thing I could have to make the piezo inks work (at least for 
long enough to be able to test them side by side with FS), but the 
risk of wasting an enormous amount of time on it just keeps me in 
the "wondering" state, not the "jump in" mode <g>.

I posted in another message, a question about the idea of trying your 
VM mixtures with the piezo driver... Think I'll pop one in just to 
see what it does...

Thanks,

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >I DON'T want to start a round of Piezo ink bashing...But ...
> 
> >If [Piezo & MIS FS] are so similar, why do you think there
> >have been issues of
> >Piezo clogging and then the MIS inks working on the same
> >printer...
> 
> I'm not sure, but I have several theories.
> 
> I think one of the main differences is that the Piezo midtones -- 
where the
> problems seem to be mostly -- use the co-solvent ink.  (This is the 
source
> of the bad smell.)  This ink is both more volatile than the base 
that MIS
> uses in the midtone inks and it, according to one article, causes 
more ink
> crystal "aggregation" (clumping), in part because it is a less 
effective
> solvent.
> 
> So, the more volatile nature may make it more subject to loose CIS 
fittings
> and drying on the heads.
> 
> As the solvent evaporates around the CIS, it may pull the soluble 
greenish
> dye out with it and deposit it around the CIS.  Perhaps it also 
concentrates
> it in the ink near the outlet.
> 
> MIS midtones, lacking the dye and the volatile co-solvent may be 
much less
> subject to these problems.
> 
> MIS VM and FS black inks do use the co-solvent.   My sense is that 
neither
> the Piezo more MIS VM or FS blacks have serious problems.  Since 
the black
> ink does not have the greenish dye, it may be that the dye is a big 
part of
> the problem.
> 
> The co-solvent aggregation may be happening too soon -- like in the 
heads or
> on the screens in the heads.  Some CISs had the screens in them 
that the MIS
> CFSs have.  I consider these screens important to have.  However, 
the
> co-solvent plus dye combo might have been clogging this screen, 
letting more
> of the soluble greenish dye through than the pigment particles.  
This could
> have been the source of the "green" problem.
> 
> I'm, of course, simply speculating.  However, I think the co-
solvent and dye

> combination in the midtone inks is the source of the trouble.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com