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Signing prints question

Signing prints question

2006-06-01 by Richard Smallfield

Hi,
I'm wondering how I should sign a print that is, say, the first print of the second open edition .... I'm forever looking at prints and thinking I could do better and should start another edition. 

How about 2nd ed 1/open? It sounds a bit long winded - is there any shorthand method that people would understand?

thanks,
Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com


   "A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy."
   --Benjamin Disraeli

Re: Signing prints question

2006-06-02 by Clayton Jones

Hello Richard,

>I'm wondering how I should sign a print that is, say, the first print
of the second open edition .... I'm forever looking at prints and
thinking I could do better and should start another edition. 
> 
>How about 2nd ed 1/open? 

If you want to confuse people then it's a great idea <g>.  The entire
concept of printings and editions seems overworked to me (Brooks
Jensen's method is the epitome of a bad idea taken to it's logical
conclusion - I think it's the only idea I've read of his that I don't
like - otherwise I'm a fan and I subscribe to his magazine).   Seems
to me there is only one reason to number a print, and that is to
uniquely identify it.  There is no reason or obligation to do anything
beyond that (the concept of a limited edition is an additional
complication which you may or may not want to use, for whatever
reason.  But if you call it limited then it should be limited).  

If you are going to have multiple editions of the same image,
distinguished by some slight difference, then you deserve whatever
trouble comes your way as a result.  You'll be explaining and
justifying for the rest of your life, no matter what numbering system
you use.  

There is also the underlying assumption that the owner would care and
want to know that his print is #4 of the 3rd printing of the 4th
edition of the warm rendering of the horizontally cropped version of
the 11x14 limited edition on Photorag 308 of "lighthouse in storm". 
Isn't it enough to know it is print #24, and more meaningful as well? 
Something like "#7, 2nd Pr., 3rd Ed." doesn't tell the owner whether
his print is the 22nd or the 76th print you've made (which is probably
what he is interested in if he cares at all).  I also feel that the
title, number and signature are part of the complete work of art and
should be done in such a way that contributes to the presentation.  A
complex and meaningless number like that, or a too bold signature for
example, is a distraction to the eye and weakens the overall effect. 
What if the viewer spends more time contemplating the number than the
image?

Here's a really radical idea that will avoid all those problems:  the
first print you make of an image, regardless of treatment, is #1.  The
second one is #2, and so on for as long as you print.  If at some
point you change how it's printed (warm or cool tone, different paper
or size, whatever), it doesn't matter.  Every print is numbered in
sequence.  What does it matter that #4 is 8x10 warm on PR and #5 is
11x14 cool on VFA?  Does anyone care?  If the image is different
enough to be considered a different picture, then treat it as such and
give it a different title and begin over with #1.  

Everytime you create a new concept, such as a special edition of some
sort, you have constructed another box which constrains you forever. 
What if you get a great new idea for how to print an image, or a new
paper or ink or printer comes out?  What are you going to do now, make
yet another special edition?  What if, in a fit of creativity some
full moon night, you make one each of three different renderings of an
image, all equally beautiful but different, all worthy of being shown
and sold...what are you going to do then?

Using the simple numbering approach, you are free of these kinds of
complications and the burden of having to explain anything to anybody.
Keep a record, if you wish, of every print, with a description of it,
paper, ink, when made, sold to, etc.  If someone contacts you 20 years
later about print #27 of "Xyz Waterfall" he purchased at an estate
sale, you can look it up and have all the original information.  

The fact that you are here in the forum asking how to do the numbering
is self-evident proof that the concept you're working with is an
awkward burden.  Doesn't have to be.  

There's my rant for the evening, no extra charge <g>.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Signing prints question

2006-06-02 by bleulesyeux4u

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Richard,
> 
>the whole issue is pure BS it's supossed to let some buyer know he has acquired a valuable 
art piece in a limited edition, what a farce, are photographers other than adams, weston and 
the like actually selling prints worth 30,000 dollars I hardly think so. christies auction house 
is getting at times upward of 100,000 dollars for photograph with no # system just a rare, 
and fairly famous artist.  If there was a seriousness about image preservation in small #'s the 
photo industry would go to a system like the French have for paintings I bought an andre 
Brasilier print in 1973 in Paris and on the back to this day there is a french goverment agency 
certificate of authenticite it's # 34 or 150 of the only press run done it's a litho and yes 31 
years later I still know it's an original. As an example Adams original portofolios had 5 proof 
prints or artist proofs and then a limited # on each print, but these were not the last prints 
pulled from those negatives.  look at all the original adams print in the marketplace. here is a 
novel idea well not really I read years ago a french photographer did this, he produced his 
limited edition of prints I think around 50 was his quanity then destroyed the negatives now 
that's a serious numbering system.

Re: [Digital BW] Signing prints question

2006-06-02 by J Vee

Exactly what I do, as --- 1/50 (or AP)      ---- ed 1 (or 2 etc.)    J Vee
(sig)

On 6/1/06 4:32 PM, "Richard Smallfield" <r.smallfield@...>
wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm wondering how I should sign a print that is, say, the first print of the
> second open edition .... I'm forever looking at prints and thinking I could do
> better and should start another edition.
> 
> How about 2nd ed 1/open? It sounds a bit long winded - is there any shorthand
> method that people would understand?
> 
> thanks,
> Richard



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Ken Carney

Well put.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any of
the old guys doing anything but signing - maybe deciding whether to sign on
the front or the back.  AA printed Moonrise, then decided to print out the
clouds, then decided to intensify the bottom in chromium, and I think he
just kept printing and signing.  Same with EW, Paul Strand, Walker Evans, so
far as I know.  For a while, Cole Weston's son dry-mounted the neg on the
back of the print, so there wasn't much doubt about anything.  Now that I'm
looking up at the wall, I do see some Martha Casanave prints that are signed
with the year in which photographed - that's not a bad idea.  I just wish I
had a legible signature or that it added some value to the print.

Regards,
Ken Carney
www.kencarney.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
> Jones
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 9:01 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Signing prints question
> 
> Hello Richard,
> 
> >I'm wondering how I should sign a print that is, say, the first print
> of the second open edition .... I'm forever looking at prints and
> thinking I could do better and should start another edition.
> >
> >How about 2nd ed 1/open?
> 
> If you want to confuse people then it's a great idea <g>.  The entire
> concept of printings and editions seems overworked to me (Brooks
> Jensen's method is the epitome of a bad idea taken to it's logical
> conclusion - I think it's the only idea I've read of his that I don't
> like - otherwise I'm a fan and I subscribe to his magazine).   Seems
> to me there is only one reason to number a print, and that is to
> uniquely identify it.  There is no reason or obligation to do anything
> beyond that (the concept of a limited edition is an additional
> complication which you may or may not want to use, for whatever
> reason.  But if you call it limited then it should be limited).
> 
> If you are going to have multiple editions of the same image,
> distinguished by some slight difference, then you deserve whatever
> trouble comes your way as a result.  You'll be explaining and
> justifying for the rest of your life, no matter what numbering system
> you use.

[Digital BW] Re: Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by harrisimages

Ken,

At least in later years,  Ansel signed the print on the front with his 
name and the date the image was made.  On the back of the print, he put 
his name, address, name of image, place taken, date image was made, and 
date print was made.

I think that's the proper was to do it. You are right about his 
printing some images over the years with different results.  Showing 
the date the print was made lets you see if it was a vintage print or a 
later version.

Ron

Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Clayton Jones

Hello Ken,

I remember reading somewhere years ago how many Moonrises AA printed,
but have forgotten what it was.  Does anyone know?   

Here is a quote from the After Image Gallery web site:

"The much more common 16 x 20 inch Moonrise prints are now valued at
around $50,000.00. Last October, Christies estimated the value of one
at auction to be $50,000.00 to $70,000.00. Last year Sotheby's sold a
20 x 24 inch Moonrise for $115,000.00, but it was printed in 1957. 
The value of a 1970s-printed 20 x 24 Moonrise is $75,000.00 to
$80,000.00."

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Clayton Price

Greetings,
About 4 years ago I saw three original prints of "Moonrise" in a New  
York gallery. They were fascinating, and it gave
a real insight into how Adam's worked in the darkroom.  The first  
print was straight from the negative - as I recall the
the sky was almost white, and few of the details related to the  
values of the final piece.  The second print was somewhat
corrected, but still a long way from what we usually see.  The third  
print was  what we've come to expect  --perfect !

When I was a student, much longer ago than I want to think about, we  
learned and worked with Zone System, in the belief
that if one follows it carefully, you could make a straight print  
from a negative with minimal dodging and burning.

Well, seeing those three prints, 2 of which were in process, the Zone  
System bubble burst within me, and I realized
Adam's fantastic darkroom skills, just as Weston, and Gene Smith, who  
I don't think worked in Zone System - at least
not formally!

Clayton Price




> Clayton Jones wrote:
> Hello Ken,
> I remember reading somewhere years ago how many Moonrises AA printed,
> but have forgotten what it was.  Does anyone know?
>
> Here is a quote from the After Image Gallery web site:
>
> "The much more common 16 x 20 inch Moonrise prints are now valued at
> around $50,000.00. Last October, Christies estimated the value of one
> at auction to be $50,000.00 to $70,000.00. ...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Andre

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Clayton Price
<clay@...> wrote:
 
> Well, seeing those three prints, 2 of which were in process, the Zone  
> System bubble burst within me, and I realized
> Adam's fantastic darkroom skills, just as Weston, and Gene Smith, who  
> I don't think worked in Zone System - at least
> not formally!
> 
> Clayton Price
> 
> 
Hi Clayton,

Gene Smith had his own proprietary printing system and to his death
never allowed anyone to touch his negatives. 

The Center for Creative Photography at the University of Arizona
acquired the Smith archive after his death, where his secret printing
methods were finally revealed.

Jim Hugues authored an article entitled "The Real Darkroom Secrets of
Gene Smith" in Darkroom Techniques, nov/dec 1995. I think he also
wrote Gene Smith's biography.

Cheers,
André

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

Of all of Ansel's images, this is without doubt the worst to use to 
judge the Zone System by.

Ansel's ideas for the zone system were to visualize what you wanted in 
the final print, carefully consider what you had to have in the negative 
to get that, then methodically go about exposing and developing the 
negative to get the necessary tones on the negative.

Moonrise was the antithesis of how he used the Zone System. Ansel's own 
account was that Moonrise was a "grab shot." He didn't have time to 
visualize anything except sliding his vehicle to a stop and running like 
mad. He couldn't find a light meter, so he guessed. He flipped the film 
holder to try to make another exposure, but the light was gone.

By all accounts, he hated the negative. It represented everything he was 
working to correct with the Zone System. That he could get a good print 
at all from it is amazing. That he could pull his amazing Moonrise 
prints is nearly miraculous and certainly a testament to his skills.

But of all his images, this is the last one to use to judge the Zone System.
--
Bruce Watson


Clayton Price wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Greetings,
> About 4 years ago I saw three original prints of "Moonrise" in a New 
> York gallery. They were fascinating, and it gave
> a real insight into how Adam's worked in the darkroom.  The first 
> print was straight from the negative - as I recall the
> the sky was almost white, and few of the details related to the 
> values of the final piece.  The second print was somewhat
> corrected, but still a long way from what we usually see.  The third 
> print was  what we've come to expect  --perfect !
>
> When I was a student, much longer ago than I want to think about, we 
> learned and worked with Zone System, in the belief
> that if one follows it carefully, you could make a straight print 
> from a negative with minimal dodging and burning.
>
> Well, seeing those three prints, 2 of which were in process, the Zone 
> System bubble burst within me, and I realized
> Adam's fantastic darkroom skills, just as Weston, and Gene Smith, who 
> I don't think worked in Zone System - at least
> not formally!
>
> Clayton Price

[Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Richard Orban

It's been interesting to me to read this thread about Ansel Adams 
darkroom technique.  Clearly I don't understand the F64 club.  I had 
thought it was a reaction to pictorialism - a more painterly type of 
photography which won A. Aubrey Bodine so much acclaim and award in 
Salon competition.  My naive understanding of F64 was "shoot and 
print".  So it's evidently more in the kind of darkroom manipulation, 
rather than the degree.  Cool.  These guys certainly achieved their 
purpose of proving that photography can be an art, not just a craft.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Of all of Ansel's images, this is without doubt the worst to use to 
> judge the Zone System by.
> ... snip ...

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-04 by Peter De Smidt

Richard Orban wrote:
> It's been interesting to me to read this thread about Ansel Adams 
> darkroom technique.  Clearly I don't understand the F64 club.  I had 
> thought it was a reaction to pictorialism - a more painterly type of 
> photography which won A. Aubrey Bodine so much acclaim and award in 
> Salon competition.  My naive understanding of F64 was "shoot and 
> print".  So it's evidently more in the kind of darkroom manipulation, 
> rather than the degree.  Cool.  These guys certainly achieved their 
> purpose of proving that photography can be an art, not just a craft.
>
>   
This is an understandable mistake.  Beaumont Newhaul (sp?) made it as 
well, since F64 was often touted as promoting "straight" photography. It 
was a reaction against the methods of the pictorialists, both in subject 
matter and technique. The main difference was that pictorialists wanted 
to emulate painting, whereas F64 members did not.  F64 members were 
generally against anything that reduced photographic quality, such as 
negative retouching commonly used at the time for portraiture. In any 
case, Newhaul was shocked to find out that Weston dodged and burned his 
prints.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-04 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

The Group f/64 manifesto:

http://www.kcbx.net/~mhd/1intro/f64.htm

The passage I think is notable to this discussion is:

/The members of Group f/64 believe that photography, as an art form, 
must develop along lines defined by the actualities and limitations of 
the photographic medium, and must always remain independent of 
ideological conventions of art and aesthetics that are reminiscent of a 
period and culture antedating the growth of the medium itself.
/--
Bruce Watson



Peter De Smidt wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Richard Orban wrote:
> > It's been interesting to me to read this thread about Ansel Adams
> > darkroom technique.  Clearly I don't understand the F64 club.  I had
> > thought it was a reaction to pictorialism - a more painterly type of
> > photography which won A. Aubrey Bodine so much acclaim and award in
> > Salon competition.  My naive understanding of F64 was "shoot and
> > print".  So it's evidently more in the kind of darkroom manipulation,
> > rather than the degree.  Cool.  These guys certainly achieved their
> > purpose of proving that photography can be an art, not just a craft.
> >
> >  
> This is an understandable mistake.  Beaumont Newhaul (sp?) made it as
> well, since F64 was often touted as promoting "straight" photography. It
> was a reaction against the methods of the pictorialists, both in subject
> matter and technique. The main difference was that pictorialists wanted
> to emulate painting, whereas F64 members did not.  F64 members were
> generally against anything that reduced photographic quality, such as
> negative retouching commonly used at the time for portraiture. In any
> case, Newhaul was shocked to find out that Weston dodged and burned his
> prints.

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