Digital BW, The Print

Clayton (or anyone else),

I've been testing out the techniques in the variable tone article and
I've run across a problem...well, not a problem, just something I
can't think of how to adjust for.  

This example is printing Paul's step wedge.  If I set (this is an
extreme example, I know) the cyan slider to -25 and the magenta to +25
the tones in the 70-90 range are about equal and there's a clear break
to pure black around 95%.  I know there's a curve that would correct
for this (to get back to a normal step wedge) but I can't seem to wrap
my mind around what it should look like.  I should add that I don't
intend to print that way I would just like to understand what's
happening better so I can apply it to lower levels of adjustment. 

At lower slider levels I can see this beginning to happen but it's
only minimally noticeable.  

Any suggestions on a curve to try?  Also, sorry for posting so many
questions and not many answers...

Thanks,

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com

More Info:

I expected that the density of the full +M would cancel out the -C and
I would have a "normal" ramp with which was just warmer.  I don't know
whether the ink densities (C and M and LC and LM) are the same though
which would certainly have an effect.  

My print looks close to your -25C print but warmer with the addition
of the +25M.  

I was basically trying to find out what the warmest print I could get
from the set was.  

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chapman"
<brianechapman@...> wrote:

>
> Clayton (or anyone else),
> 
> I've been testing out the techniques in the variable tone article and
> I've run across a problem...well, not a problem, just something I
> can't think of how to adjust for.  
> 
> This example is printing Paul's step wedge.  If I set (this is an
> extreme example, I know) the cyan slider to -25 and the magenta to +25
> the tones in the 70-90 range are about equal and there's a clear break
> to pure black around 95%.  I know there's a curve that would correct
> for this (to get back to a normal step wedge) but I can't seem to wrap
> my mind around what it should look like.  I should add that I don't
> intend to print that way I would just like to understand what's
> happening better so I can apply it to lower levels of adjustment. 
> 
> At lower slider levels I can see this beginning to happen but it's
> only minimally noticeable.  
> 
> Any suggestions on a curve to try?  Also, sorry for posting so many
> questions and not many answers...
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Brian
> http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
>

Hello Brian,

>If I set (this is an extreme example, I know) the cyan slider to 
>-25 and the magenta to +25 the tones in the 70-90 range are about 
>equal and there's a clear break to pure black around 95%. 

I printed an entire set of symmetrical CM +/- and -/+  ramps at
increments of 5, on Dourian (like PR, medium warm at 0/0), and it's
easy to see what happens.  The practical limit seems to be about 15 in
either direction.  Up to there it holds a fairly normal ramp.  After
that the ramp gets pretty messed up. 


>I know there's a curve that would correct for this (to get back to 
>a normal step wedge) but I can't seem to wrap my mind around what 
>it should look like. 

Even at 0/0/0, R2 tends to lower contrast and density a bit, so I
always expect to add an adjustment curve.  In your example the curve
would need to restore contrast (steeper slope) in that 70-90 zone.  
However, it may not be practically possible without getting
posturization or other weird effects.  But if you stay within the 15
limit, I've found so far that it's easily controlled.


>...I was basically trying to find out what the warmest print I 
>could get from the set was.  

In the above set of ramps on Dourian, with CM +15/-15 being the
coolest and -15/+15 the warmest, it's quite a nice range between the
extremes.  There is a greater difference between 0/0 and the warm one
than the cool one, something like this, just to give an idea:

 Cool +15/-15 ------- 0/0 ------------ -15/+15 warm

The same settings printed on Kayenta, a cold paper, are relatively the
same result, but much cooler.  The Kayenta 0/0 print is cooler than
the cool PR print, and the warm Kayenta is a close match to the PR
0/0.  Sort of like this (sorry for the dots, it's because of the html):

.....................C------- PR ------------W
.......C------- KY ------------W

and I assume a super warm paper like Wm. Turner would do something
similar on the warm end (I don't have any on hand to test).

So I still see the paper choice as the main determiner of the general
tone, and R2 as a way to nudge it warmer or cooler from there.  

Hope this helps...I think I'll go add this to the article.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

It was supposed to be more like this (hopefully)

..........................C------- PR ------------W
.......C------- KY ------------W


the R of PR should be over the W on the KY line.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

In my case, Clayton, which is Apple's Mail writing in Verdana, the  
"P" and the "R" are enough smaller than the "W", and so tightly  
kerned, that both of them together are directly over the "W" and not  
much wider. But if I delete the space just before the P, then the "R"  
follows the P back to left one space, and is then directly over the  
middle of the "W", as here (if you see it as I do):
>
> ..........................C-------PR ------------W
> .......C------- KY ------------W
>

Which makes me wonder whether a monospaced font would work better.
--
Sam

On Jun 11, 2006, at 3:22 PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

>
> It was supposed to be more like this (hopefully)
>
> ..........................C------- PR ------------W
> .......C------- KY ------------W
>
>
> the R of PR should be over the W on the KY line.
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

Thanks for the response - it definatley helps!  My parents were 
visiting over the weekend so I didn't have much time to catch up!  

Regarding the curve - it is somewhat difficult to visualize changes 
in the print when you don't really see them on screen, especially in 
such extreme examples (+25/-25)...as you said, if it is possible at 
all.  It takes a break of an association I'm used to making 
(screen=print) in order to think about it correctly.   

In the ramp you posted for -25C,0M it looks like there is kind of 
the "break" I was talking about in my ramps in the middle of the 
100% step (looking the smooth part not the stepped part).  Is that 
what you were talking about as not being possible to correct well?  
If you were going to try, because it's all "bunched" at that end, 
what would you do?  I don't know if my terminology, break and 
bunched, is appropriate, but I try :)

I have not printed much on different papers yet but I can see how it 
makes a difference - your breakdown in the paper chase article helps 
as well.  I  really wanted to do most of the experimenting on the 
cheap stuff (EEM) ;) 

Thanks again!

Brian 
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com - last updated June 12, 2006

> 
> >If I set (this is an extreme example, I know) the cyan slider to 
> >-25 and the magenta to +25 the tones in the 70-90 range are about 
> >equal and there's a clear break to pure black around 95%. 
> 
> I printed an entire set of symmetrical CM +/- and -/+  ramps at
> increments of 5, on Dourian (like PR, medium warm at 0/0), and it's
> easy to see what happens.  The practical limit seems to be about 
15 in
> either direction.  Up to there it holds a fairly normal ramp.  
After
> that the ramp gets pretty messed up. 
> 
> 
> >I know there's a curve that would correct for this (to get back 
to 
> >a normal step wedge) but I can't seem to wrap my mind around what 
> >it should look like. 
> 
> Even at 0/0/0, R2 tends to lower contrast and density a bit, so I
> always expect to add an adjustment curve.  In your example the 
curve
> would need to restore contrast (steeper slope) in that 70-90 
zone.  
> However, it may not be practically possible without getting
> posturization or other weird effects.  But if you stay within the 
15
> limit, I've found so far that it's easily controlled.
> 
> 
> >...I was basically trying to find out what the warmest print I 
> >could get from the set was.  
> 
> In the above set of ramps on Dourian, with CM +15/-15 being the
> coolest and -15/+15 the warmest, it's quite a nice range between 
the
> extremes.  There is a greater difference between 0/0 and the warm 
one
> than the cool one, something like this, just to give an idea:
> 
>  Cool +15/-15 ------- 0/0 ------------ -15/+15 warm
> 
> The same settings printed on Kayenta, a cold paper, are relatively 
the
> same result, but much cooler.  The Kayenta 0/0 print is cooler than
> the cool PR print, and the warm Kayenta is a close match to the PR
> 0/0.  Sort of like this (sorry for the dots, it's because of the 
html):
> 
> .....................C------- PR ------------W
> .......C------- KY ------------W
> 
> and I assume a super warm paper like Wm. Turner would do something
> similar on the warm end (I don't have any on hand to test).
> 
> So I still see the paper choice as the main determiner of the 
general

> tone, and R2 as a way to nudge it warmer or cooler from there.  
> 
> Hope this helps...I think I'll go add this to the article.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello Sam,

>In my case, Clayton, which is Apple's Mail writing in Verdana...
>...Which makes me wonder whether a monospaced font would work 
>better.

Absolutely.  I compose on line in the browser, not email, and the
reply screen is in Courier New.  Then in preview it's shown in Verdana
or something like that, and in view mode after posting the messages
are rendered in some other proportional font using html.  Not only
does the font screw up any spacing you may have used, the html removes
all but one space (hence the dots). But even with the dots the
proportional font still messes it up.  It's a double whammy.  It's
almost impossible to show any kind of chart or formatted information.
 Incredibly dumb system.  Sigh.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Brian,

>Thanks for the response - it definitely helps!  
>In the ramp you posted for -25C,0M it looks like there is kind of 
>the "break" I was talking about in my ramps in the middle of the 
>100% step (looking the smooth part not the stepped part).  Is that 
>what you were talking about as not being possible to correct well?  

Yes.  First let me say that the images in the articles are very poor
and I hope to replace them with something better.  They were snapped
with a pocket digicam, rather than scanned, just a quickie job in the
wee hours.  Looking closely at the actual print, there is actually a
place around 90% where it gets lighter than at 85%, then drops off
quickly.  This bumpiness begins to show up after the slider value goes
beyond 15, either direction.  I haven't tested to see, but the degree
of this effect may vary on different papers.

>If you were going to try, because it's all "bunched" at that end, 
>what would you do?  

In an adjustment curve, any zone where the ramp has gone flat would
need a steep slope in the corresponding position to compensate.  In
the case of the place where it goes lighter for a bit, the adj curve
would require a dip to darken it.  In my experience this kind of
adjustment rarely works well.  The printed ramp is a response of the
paper to the ink load which is changed by the CM sliders.  It has
nothing to do with the image.  With a curve we're trying to adjust the
image to compensate for this.  Such radical curves usually cause badly
combed histograms and resulting posterization or related weirdities. 
At the very least the image must be in 16-bit if there's any chance it
will work.  My experience is that any such radical curves result in
some sort of ugliness in the print.  


>It takes a break of an association I'm used to making
>(screen=print) in order to think about it correctly.

Yes, it's one of the drawbacks of using the driver color controls for
anything - you can only see the result in the print.  


>I have not printed much on different papers yet but I can see how it 
>makes a difference - your breakdown in the paper chase article helps 
>as well.  I  really wanted to do most of the experimenting on the 
>cheap stuff (EEM) ;) 

Understood.  But after proofing when the paper and tone settings for
the final print are being determined, at least a few proofs on that
paper must be made to nail it all down.  Assuming this info is saved
in some way, this never has to be done again for subsequent prints.

Adapting to this system came easily to me because of my BO work.  I
have a nice collection of papers on hand (10 different ones besides
EEM, about 5 of which I use regularly).  Kayenta is the coldest, then
Condor BW and Peregrine Smooth (used to be called Merlin Smooth). 
Entrada is also coolish.  BTW, a friend has some Wm Turner for me (the
warmest), so I'll make a warm/cool set of ramps and add it to the
little range chart and put it in the article.  This will give a
relative idea of the full range of tones available to this approach.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Thanks Clayton!

The 'adjusting the image to compensate for the papers response to 
the ink load' explanation was very helpful.  I hadn't been thinking 
about it with regards to how the image would degrade with those 
attempts. 

When I originally was testing with the full set of neutral inks I 
was able to get the smoothest ramp by assigning the gray gamma 2.2 
profile to the image, adding a levels layer just to bump up the 
brightness to match the DG20 look (which I have been using as the 
default), and then printing with printer gamma 2.2.  I had several 
previous posts with you and Paul about it.  However, with this 
combination of inks I get the best ramp with DG20 and printer gamma 
1.8 (at C0,M0).  In one of my first messages to this group I talked 
about trying to reach a certain level of consistency... :P  I'm 
going to reprint the test series with DG20 and PG1.8 to see if I get 
better results.

BTW, I have not used QTR or any other RIP for any of this.  

Thanks,

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com - Last updated June 12, 2006


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Brian,
> 
> >Thanks for the response - it definitely helps!  
> >In the ramp you posted for -25C,0M it looks like there is kind of 
> >the "break" I was talking about in my ramps in the middle of the 
> >100% step (looking the smooth part not the stepped part).  Is 
that 
> >what you were talking about as not being possible to correct 
well?  
> 
> Yes.  First let me say that the images in the articles are very 
poor
> and I hope to replace them with something better.  They were 
snapped
> with a pocket digicam, rather than scanned, just a quickie job in 
the
> wee hours.  Looking closely at the actual print, there is actually 
a
> place around 90% where it gets lighter than at 85%, then drops off
> quickly.  This bumpiness begins to show up after the slider value 
goes
> beyond 15, either direction.  I haven't tested to see, but the 
degree
> of this effect may vary on different papers.
> 
> >If you were going to try, because it's all "bunched" at that end, 
> >what would you do?  
> 
> In an adjustment curve, any zone where the ramp has gone flat would
> need a steep slope in the corresponding position to compensate.  In
> the case of the place where it goes lighter for a bit, the adj 
curve
> would require a dip to darken it.  In my experience this kind of
> adjustment rarely works well.  The printed ramp is a response of 
the
> paper to the ink load which is changed by the CM sliders.  It has
> nothing to do with the image.  With a curve we're trying to adjust 
the
> image to compensate for this.  Such radical curves usually cause 
badly
> combed histograms and resulting posterization or related 
weirdities. 
> At the very least the image must be in 16-bit if there's any 
chance it
> will work.  My experience is that any such radical curves result in
> some sort of ugliness in the print.  
> 
> 
> >It takes a break of an association I'm used to making
> >(screen=print) in order to think about it correctly.
> 
> Yes, it's one of the drawbacks of using the driver color controls 
for
> anything - you can only see the result in the print.  
> 
> 
> >I have not printed much on different papers yet but I can see how 
it 
> >makes a difference - your breakdown in the paper chase article 
helps 
> >as well.  I  really wanted to do most of the experimenting on the 
> >cheap stuff (EEM) ;) 
> 
> Understood.  But after proofing when the paper and tone settings 
for
> the final print are being determined, at least a few proofs on that
> paper must be made to nail it all down.  Assuming this info is 
saved
> in some way, this never has to be done again for subsequent prints.
> 
> Adapting to this system came easily to me because of my BO work.  I
> have a nice collection of papers on hand (10 different ones besides
> EEM, about 5 of which I use regularly).  Kayenta is the coldest, 
then
> Condor BW and Peregrine Smooth (used to be called Merlin Smooth). 
> Entrada is also coolish.  BTW, a friend has some Wm Turner for me 
(the
> warmest), so I'll make a warm/cool set of ramps and add it to the
> little range chart and put it in the article.  This will give a
> relative idea of the full range of tones available to this 
approach.

> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello Brian,

>...with this combination of inks I get the best ramp with 
>DG20 and printer gamma 1.8...

I have always gotten the best results with this combination, with BO
and K3/ABW as well as R2.  The GG2.2/2.2 approach seems to have more
compressed shadow zones, which is always a challenge to control at
best.  DG20/1.8 is more open (the prints seem to "breathe" more) and
easier to work with.


>BTW, I have not used QTR or any other RIP for any of this.  

Isn't it nice.  

Sounds like it's all coming together for you.  Pretty soon you'll be
able to enjoy taking pictures and making prints :) 


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Thanks Clayton - Slowly but...well, I hesitate to say 'surely', I'm 
understanding the interaction between different pieces in a printing 
workflow.  Many thanks to you and Paul (and others, of course) for 
all your help and great advice and work - it's made life much easier 
for the rest of us!

Thanks,

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com - Last updated June 12, 2006

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Brian,
> 
> >...with this combination of inks I get the best ramp with 
> >DG20 and printer gamma 1.8...
> 
> I have always gotten the best results with this combination, with 
BO
> and K3/ABW as well as R2.  The GG2.2/2.2 approach seems to have 
more
> compressed shadow zones, which is always a challenge to control at
> best.  DG20/1.8 is more open (the prints seem to "breathe" more) 
and
> easier to work with.
> 
> 
> >BTW, I have not used QTR or any other RIP for any of this.  
> 
> Isn't it nice.  
> 
> Sounds like it's all coming together for you.  Pretty soon you'll 
be

> able to enjoy taking pictures and making prints :) 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

From Hahnemuhle Public Relations:

The Truth About Optical Brighteners in Hahnemuhle Paper
June 4, 2006

There has been growing concern recently about the use of Optical 
Brightening Agents, or OBAs, in digital fine art paper. More and more 
often we hear the question, Are your papers OBA free? The answer is, 
we offer options both with and without OBAs. Because of a 
misunderstanding of OBAs, many people are surprised to hear this 
response. Please let us explain...

OBAs are white or colorless compounds that work by converting 
ultraviolet light into visible light, thereby making the paper appear 
brighter or whiter. They do not change the color of the paper; they 
only fool the eye into seeing a whiter color. After being exposed to 
UV rays for a long period of time, OBAs will begin to lose their 
fluorescent quality, leaving only the natural base color.

There are several methods for adding brighteners to digital media. 
Some companies use the less expensive method of putting OBAs into the 
receptive coating. Because it is not know what effect, if any, spent 
OBAs will have on inks, we add them directly to the paper, ensuring 
that they never come in direct contact with the inks.

Some of our competitors claim that only OBA-free papers meet the 
Library of Congress Standard for Archivability. However, this 
standard refers only to boxes and paper used for storage. A better 
standard by which to measure photographic paper is the Library of 
Congress Standard for Paper Permanence, which does allow the 
inclusion of brighteners. All Hahnemuhle papers meet this standard.

So the claim that OBAs cause paper to yellow or reduce its permanence 
is simply wrong. Eventually, the perceived color of the paper will 
revert to the same base color as papers without; but initially, OBAs 
allow a much brighter base. It is not yet known how long the 
reversion to natural might take. We do know that it is not an 
immediate thing; it could take as many as 50 years (even longer if 
the artist takes measures to protect the image from the effects of UV 
rays.) But the point to remember is that the paper will end up the 
same color as it would have if OBAs were not used.

Consider that virtually all silver halide papers used in darkroom 
photography contained OBAs. Artists who wanted a bright white base 
simply accepted the fact that there would be a slight change over a 
long period of time. In fact, many photographers and collectors find 
this mature look desirable. At Hahnemhle, we strongly feel that to 
provide the paper base color and print color where the artist wants 
it for their lifetime is better than having it wrong from the 
beginning.

Another important benefit of adding OBAs to digital papers is batch 
consistency. By adding OBAs, we can assure that your image remains 
true without having to re-profile every time you purchase paper from 
a different batch.

For more than 400 years the Hahnemhle mill has dedicated itself to 
providing the highest quality paper products. We take great pride in 
the product that we provide our reputation depends on it. While we 
could certainly jump on the anti-OBA bandwagon, we remain steadfast 
in our commitment to the artists choice. Ultimately, we do not cater 
to hype; we cater solely to creativity and quality. We will 
therefore, continue to provide superior media with and without OBAs.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, jonathan wills
<jw@...> wrote:
>
>  From Hahnemuhle Public Relations:
> 
> The Truth About Optical Brighteners in Hahnemuhle Paper
> June 4, 2006
> 


Is there a link to this or was it in an email that they sent to you?

I found it in a variety of places, but had not seen it posted here. I 
searched, but could not find it at Hahnemuhle's site, even though 
they have a page for releases. It is posted at Outback Photo, 
Luminous Landscape, Piranha, other places. Not that any of those 
verify its pedigree.

<http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11172>

<http://www.outbackphoto.com/tforum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=2090>

<http://www.piranhadailynews.com/newsstream/?p=7544#more-7544>

If you really want to get into it, one or two of those sites also 
included a link to the Library of Congress paper permanence policy, 
which is mentioned in the Hahnemuhle PR.

<http://www.loc.gov/preserv/pub/perm/pp_1.html>

jonathan wills
_______
wills design
portland, oregon, usa


At 11:21 PM +0000 6/19/06, Greg wrote:

>--- In 
><mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
>jonathan wills
><jw@...> wrote:
>>
>>  From Hahnemuhle Public Relations:
>>
>>  The Truth About Optical Brighteners in Hahnemuhle Paper
>>  June 4, 2006
>>
>
>Is there a link to this or was it in an email that they sent to you?

Thanks.