Digital BW, The Print

Hi Paul;

I'm looking for a way to match the border area of a print to the mat 
color that isn't too much of a pain. Is it possible to apply different 
profiles to separate layers of an image with 3D? That would enable me 
to print a warm very light grey border with a neutral image. 

Regards,

Steven Karafyllakis

Hi Steve,

>I'm looking for a way to match the border area of a print to the mat 
>color that isn't too much of a pain.

Of course, the method I recommend is to use non-brightened (no OBA) paper.

Usually a brightened paper is too bluish relative to the un-brightened mat
boards.  One of the most effective ways I've seen to overcome this with inks
is the use of yellow ink in a color inkset.

With B&W inksets, the chromas are so low when just a 2% - 5% or so density
is used that graying down the border may be about all that can be done.  I'm
not sure how much difference it makes whether the ink used is pure carbon or
neutral.  However, since carbon is somewhat yellow, that would at least in
theory be the best ink to use if it is easily accomplished.

> Is it possible to apply different 
>profiles to separate layers of an image with 3D?

I don't think one can print through the PS Print Profile and have different
ICCs applied to different parts of the image.

The 3D inkset is controlled by curves inside the ICCs.  I post these curves
also.  With the curves you can apply a different set to different parts of
the image.  See my simple split-tone example at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Split_tone.pdf 

However, the curves used in the example above and the curves that are inside
the ICCs lack the more accurate linearization of the ICC workflow.  So, to
get a perfect monitor match some individual tweaking might be needed.  You'd
have to test the specific curves.  I don't think I've even posted pure
carbon curves yet.  They are relatively simple -- just the C channel (red
curve) with M and Y diving down at the end to turn on the black ink.
(Getting the ramp smooth and correct, of course, is always easier said than
done.)

> That would enable me 
>to print a warm very light grey border with a neutral image. 

That would be a nice goal -- for both the border issue and split tone
printing.  Maybe a Photoshop expert could find a way to apply or "convert
to" different ICCs within PS.  It seems like one might be able to make
duplicate RGB copies, convert each copy of the image to a different ICC, and
then re-combine them as appropriate -- the neutral part for the image
itself; the warm part for the border.  I might try that later today.  It
might be a better way to do a split tone if it works.  It would be nice to
retain the linearization of the ICC in split-toning.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

In a message dated 7/14/06 12:12:50 PM, paul.roark@... writes:


> >I'm looking for a way to match the border area of a print to the mat
> >color that isn't too much of a pain.
> 
> Of course, the method I recommend is to use non-brightened (no OBA) paper.
> 
Thats a start. For color work, you can do it with PrintFIX PRO, as described 
below (may be valid with 3d inks, though some adjustments will be necessary):

Measure desired mat color with PFP, in the Tools>Measure screen. Note downthe 
Lab values of the matte (if doing several, start a log, read them in a known 
order, then open the log to get the Lab values)

To get a match to the matte, open a document in Photoshop in your preferred 
color space (which I will assume is AdobeRGB). Now open the color picker, and 
type in the Lab values that you measured (yes, its a pain that the picker 
doesn't allow fractional Lab values to be entered). Now paste the resulting color 
in the border area of your image file.

For a 'tint' (paler version) of your mat's color, use the same a and b, but 
move the L closer to 100 (to paper white, actually, can't go above that). If 
thats too saturated, divide the a and b to half the original (both closer to 
zero, whether positive or negative), as well as moving the L closer to 100. 
Subtle is good. If its hardly noticable, thats ideal. 

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That sounds like a good way to get an exact match C.D. 
 My thanks to both of you, I'll look into it further first chance I 
get. The real problem is in printing a K3 neutral image and a 
warmtoned border simultaneously, thrpugh QTR, Qimage, or CS2PS which 
is what I have  for printing software. I suppose I could do it 
easily with Imageprint or another RIP, but Imageprint for the 7600 
and the R1800 is WAY more money than I want to spend.

Steve Karafyllakis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 7/14/06 12:12:50 PM, paul.roark@... writes:
> 
> 
> > >I'm looking for a way to match the border area of a print to 
the mat
> > >color that isn't too much of a pain.
> > 
> > Of course, the method I recommend is to use non-brightened (no 
OBA) paper.
> > 
> Thats a start. For color work, you can do it with PrintFIX PRO, as 
described 
> below (may be valid with 3d inks, though some adjustments will be 
necessary):
> 
> Measure desired mat color with PFP, in the Tools>Measure screen. 
Note downthe 
> Lab values of the matte (if doing several, start a log, read them 
in a known 
> order, then open the log to get the Lab values)
> 
> To get a match to the matte, open a document in Photoshop in your 
preferred 
> color space (which I will assume is AdobeRGB). Now open the color 
picker, and 
> type in the Lab values that you measured (yes, its a pain that the 
picker 
> doesn't allow fractional Lab values to be entered). Now paste the 
resulting color 
> in the border area of your image file.
> 
> For a 'tint' (paler version) of your mat's color, use the same a 
and b, but 
> move the L closer to 100 (to paper white, actually, can't go above 
that). If 
> thats too saturated, divide the a and b to half the original (both 
closer to 
> zero, whether positive or negative), as well as moving the L 
closer to 100. 

> Subtle is good. If its hardly noticable, thats ideal. 
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

For just toning down the border a little with the UT-3D inkset, I'm not sure
worrying about that part of the image being pure carbon v. a neutral mix is
worth worrying much about.  All the inks in a dedicated B&W inkset like the
3D are so low in color that the paper color will dominate the very lightest
shades.  For example, on a rather highly brightened Kirkland glossy paper at
L = 93, the pure carbon Lab (a,b) is (.18, -2.8).  At L = 93 the neutral
Kirkland ICC prints with a color (.2, -3.24).  I'm not sure there is enough
difference between these two shades to bother with more than just putting a
very light gray border around the grayscale image and printing with the ICC.


 

For reference, my Light Impressions Gallery White is an un-brightened paper
with a lab of about (96, 1.7, 4.5).  A B&W inkset can gray down the border
areas a bit, but it cannot match the degree of warmth of this non-OBA mat,
at least not on a bright paper like Kirkland and up that high on the
Lightness value.

 

Non-OBA paper is the best solution I've found for work that is going to be
matted and displayed that way.  

 

Of course, what I'd like to do is get rid of the mat board entirely (and
glass, for that matter).  Since people seem to expect glass and some
mat-like border, one way to do this is simply use an oversize piece of paper
and print an appropriate border on it.  It appears that matte inkjet paper,
especially if sprayed with Lascaux, does not stick to glass when it is
directly against it.  With this solution you have a match of tones, and you
save the money of a matte board.  

 

More for demonstration than anything else, I've made images with "faux mats"
(simulated over-mat printed on oversize paper), and most viewers don't
notice that there is really no over-mat there at all.  For this approach I
actually scanned a mat board to get the texture.  Then I just use a
grayscale file to print it with whatever workflow I'm using.  I don't bother
with split toning.  It works surprisingly well.  I put a sample on my photo
home page at www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>    

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven
Karafyllakis
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:45 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] 3D Inks- Questin for Paul

 

Hi Paul;

I'm looking for a way to match the border area of a print to the mat 
color that isn't too much of a pain. Is it possible to apply different 
profiles to separate layers of an image with 3D? That would enable me 
to print a warm very light grey border with a neutral image. 

Regards,

Steven Karafyllakis

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Of course, what I'd like to do is get rid of the mat board entirely (and
> glass, for that matter). Since people seem to expect glass and some
> mat-like border, one way to do this is simply use an oversize piece of 
> paper
> and print an appropriate border on it. It appears that matte inkjet paper,
> especially if sprayed with Lascaux, does not stick to glass when it is
> directly against it. With this solution you have a match of tones, and you
> save the money of a matte board. 

Here's a brief description of a program that does what Paul is 
suggesting: http://bermangraphics.com/press/quickmats.htm

Paul;

I agree that using 'the good stuff' is the best solution for high-
end gallery environments; But what I'm looking for is an inexpensive 
solution that doesn't look cheap or compromise much on quality and 
archivalness for 'impulse buy' small prints in an art fair 
environment. I think for the time being I'll simply print down the 
border a tiny bit, and not worry about matching the color until I 
find the right paper for the job.
>
> 
> Non-OBA paper is the best solution I've found for work that is 
going to be
> matted and displayed that way.  
> 
>  
> 
> Of course, what I'd like to do is get rid of the mat board 
entirely (and
> glass, for that matter).  

Right now printing on canvas is probably the only publicly accepted 
way of getting rid of the mat and glass; I'm not very fond of that, 
(in fact I find it downright offensive) but most people who do it 
claim the public loves canvas. It makes the photo seem more 
like 'real art' or some BS like that. Yech.

Steve Karafyllakis

Steve,

>I agree that using 'the good stuff' is the best solution 
>for high-end gallery environments; 
>But what I'm looking for is an inexpensive 
>solution that doesn't look cheap or compromise much on 
>quality and archivalness for 'impulse buy' small prints 
>in an art fair environment. 

I use Premier Art Hot Press 205 (no OBAs) behind a Light Impressions
over-mat for this.

If Moab has cured the flaking issues (as rumor suggests), their "natural"
Entrada is also an option to consider.

... 
> > Of course, what I'd like to do is get rid of the 
> > mat board entirely (and glass, for that matter). 

>Right now printing on canvas is probably the only publicly
> accepted way of getting rid of the mat and glass; 
>I'm not very fond of that ...

I agree.  Actually I like the matted 11 x 14 prints in ClearBags.com sold
from the bin.  By cutting out my framing time/costs, I think I'd rather sell
more of them for less and make more on a per hour basis.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com