Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,
one thing that still puzzles me about ABW in the R2400, is whether
that mode can be used in conjuction with color management and use of
printer profiles or whether is better to be used with no color
management either by the driver or the printing software.
If the answer is positive for the first question, then is it
recommended to assign the cm to the printing software or to the driver.
I'm not completely ignorant on cm (or so I think)and so far with my
R800 and Qimage, it was quite clear what I should do (even though I
wasn't happy with the b/w results despite using custom icc profiles,
but now I haven't figured out whether I should abandon cm alltogether
if I am to use ABW.
Thank you

Hello Zisskar,

>one thing that still puzzles me about ABW in the R2400, is whether
>that mode can be used in conjuction with color management and use of
>printer profiles or whether is better to be used with no color
>management either by the driver or the printing software.
>If the answer is positive for the first question, then is it
>recommended to assign the cm to the printing software or to the driver.
>I'm not completely ignorant on cm (or so I think)and so far with my
>R800 and Qimage, it was quite clear what I should do (even though I
>wasn't happy with the b/w results despite using custom icc profiles,
>but now I haven't figured out whether I should abandon cm alltogether
>if I am to use ABW.

I have found that the 2400 works fine in ABW mode without any CM
calibrating or paper linearization curves.  I'm willing to put up with
the small inconvenience of making minor image adjustment curves to
make a particular paper match the proof (a quick and easy matter) in
order to enjoy the freedom of not being dependent on specialized
profiles for each paper (I use a lot of different papers and am often
trying something new).  Many others are willing to go that route in
order to have whatever advantages they get from it.  So it's a matter
of choice.  Also, I'm not sending images to a service bureau so I
don't need to worry about matching a standard calibration.  Using the
linearization curves created by the QTR utility is another approach,
sort of in between.  So there are several choices.  I'm sure you'll
get other replies with more details on those methods.

If you are interested in my approach, article #9 at the link below
describes it in a detailed step by step outline.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton's approach is certainly viable and I'm not posting this as a
counter to it, only a clarification of the issue.
The only way to properly implement color management with the ABW
driver is with a single channel icc profile. A color profile, one we
typically associate with color management, would convert your gray
file to RGB on the fly and I don't believe the ABW driver would deal
with it.
If you wanted to pursue it, Roy's Create ICC that comes with QTR would
be the best approach but dependent on a spectro. The other approach
would be the time tested and luddite way of making a custom B&W dot
gain curve by eye, and saving it out as an icc profile.
Tyler
www.custom-digital.com

Thank you Clayton and Tyler for your replies.

Clayton, I was aware of your informative article before posting my
question. I also understand that is a matter of choice to CM or to use
the ABW, I was just wondering whether it would be better to combine
the two. 
Now a related question, since I know your prefferance in BO printing,
under which method can "only" the 3 K inks be used?
If you choose neutral tone on ABW and 0 wheel settings, does this
means that only the K inks will be used? 

Tyler, what do you mean with single channel icc profile? Is it like a
dot gain profile that can be embedded on a grayscale image? Does this
method utilizies only the 3 K inks? 

At the moment I'm not entering into the conversation two other
variables, trying to keep things "simple" and these are Qimage and QTR.
I will later try to see how I can implement Qimage or QTR printing
with the R2400, I just want to say for now that the raason I'm not
converting my b/w images to grayscle is Qimage.

pardon my ignorance -- how do you crreate and save a custom greyscale 
dot gain as an icc profile?

Tyler Boley wrote:
> Clayton's approach is certainly viable and I'm not posting this as a
> counter to it, only a clarification of the issue.
> The only way to properly implement color management with the ABW
> driver is with a single channel icc profile. A color profile, one we
> typically associate with color management, would convert your gray
> file to RGB on the fly and I don't believe the ABW driver would deal
> with it.

I think ABW can cope with RGB. That at least is what I 
remember of the first information on it.

BTW, Qimage has only RGB output to the driver so whether it 
uses a single channel ICC profile or a normal ICC profile it 
will always produce RGB output to the driver.

Ernst


-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Hello Ziskar,

>Now a related question, since I know your prefferance in BO printing,
>under which method can "only" the 3 K inks be used?

The Epson ABW driver does not provide an option to use only the 3
blacks.  In order to do this a RIP is required to individually control
the inks.  QTR provides for this very nicely.


>If you choose neutral tone on ABW and 0 wheel settings, does this
>means that only the K inks will be used? 

The 0,0 setting uses a mixture of all the inks in a balance that
creates, supposedly, a neutral BW print.  The resulting over all tone
actually varies on different papers.  It can also vary among different
images on a given paper.  That may sound strange, but the tone
actually shifts slightly along the ramp.  So two images, one with high
contrast and the other with broad midtone areas, printed on the same
paper at the same setting, can look a bit different on the warm/cool
scale.

I printed a portfolio of 14 images recently, and began with the
intention that they would all use the same setting.  But I ended up
tweaking certain ones a tiny bit because the ones with lots of silvery
midtones looked a bit warmer than the contrasty ones.

So you can't take a formulaic approach to the ABW system.  Each image
requires individual judgement.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton Jones wrote:
> The 0,0 setting uses a mixture of all the inks in a balance that
> creates, supposedly, a neutral BW print.  The resulting over all tone
> actually varies on different papers.  It can also vary among different
> images on a given paper.  That may sound strange, but the tone
> actually shifts slightly along the ramp.  So two images, one with high
> contrast and the other with broad midtone areas, printed on the same
> paper at the same setting, can look a bit different on the warm/cool
> scale.
I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw this. This is the 
reason that I don't like printing B&W with color inks. It's the reason I 
don't like variable tone B&W inksets. I much prefer a fixed tone inkset 
like the Cone PiezoTones. Isn't it nice that we have so many choices?
-- 
Bruce Watson















/
/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djpearlman1"
<djpearlman1@...> wrote:
>
> pardon my ignorance -- how do you crreate and save a custom greyscale 
> dot gain as an icc profile?
>

I wrote it up once, used to be a common practice. Mine would be
outdated by now, anyone else have a current set of instructions?
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zisskar"
<ziskar@...> wrote:
>
...
> 
> Tyler, what do you mean with single channel icc profile?

icc profiles are generally color, so single channel profiles are rare,
or at least newish. RGB is 3 channels, CMYK is 4 channels, B&W or Gray
is 1 channel. A channel for every color.

> Is it like a
> dot gain profile that can be embedded on a grayscale image?

It can be, Roy's profiler is measurement based and essentially work on
the luminance channel. It amounts to the same thing in the end.

> Does this
> method utilizies only the 3 K inks? 

The profile does not (in this case) determine which inks are used, the
driver does that.
These profiles are simply making your tones behave properly from paper
white to ink black, like a correction curve applied to the file on the
fly while handed off to the printer.

Tyler

>
>> pardon my ignorance -- how do you crreate and save a custom greyscale 
>> dot gain as an icc profile?
>

>I wrote it up once, used to be a common practice. Mine would be
>outdated by now, anyone else have a current set of instructions?
>Tyler

See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monitor-Profiling.htm

That is the latest version that I used -- don't know if it's outdated or
not.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Edit Color Settings.  Create a custom dot gain and then save it ­ it saves
it as an ICC profile.

But if you have a densitometer or spectrophotometer then it will be worth
exploring QTR Create ICC.

From: djpearlman1 <djpearlman1@...>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 13:08:34 -0000
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ABW and Color management with R2400

 
 
 

pardon my ignorance -- how do you crreate and save a custom greyscale
dot gain as an icc profile?

 
   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

New guy here.

What is ABW??

gar

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bruce
Watson
  Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 8:58 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW and Color management with R2400


  Clayton Jones wrote:
  > The 0,0 setting uses a mixture of all the inks in a balance that
  > creates, supposedly, a neutral BW print. The resulting over all tone
  > actually varies on different papers. It can also vary among different
  > images on a given paper. That may sound strange, but the tone
  > actually shifts slightly along the ramp. So two images, one with high
  > contrast and the other with broad midtone areas, printed on the same
  > paper at the same setting, can look a bit different on the warm/cool
  > scale.
  I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw this. This is the
  reason that I don't like printing B&W with color inks. It's the reason I
  don't like variable tone B&W inksets. I much prefer a fixed tone inkset
  like the Cone PiezoTones. Isn't it nice that we have so many choices?
  --
  Bruce Watson

  /
  /



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary W. Weaver" 
<garww@...> wrote:

> What is ABW??

Advanced Black and White - mode available in newer Epson printers that 
prints B&W primarily using three black inks.

Lee

Thanks, I was all over the board guessing.

gar

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of aa4ga2
  Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 12:36 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ABW


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary W. Weaver"
  <garww@...> wrote:

  > What is ABW??

  Advanced Black and White - mode available in newer Epson printers that
  prints B&W primarily using three black inks.

  Lee



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Watson
<bwyg@...> wrote:
>
> Clayton Jones wrote:
> > ...That may sound strange, but the tone
> > actually shifts slightly along the ramp...
...
> I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw this...

Nope, one of the first tests I did here was an ABW test on EEM when
the 9800 came in the door.
I figured before I start messing things up, let's see what the rave is
about. Particularly on their own paper, you'd think that would be
absolutely nailed.
But it changed hue down the ramp in an unattractive way, in fact it
was one of the most unappealing B&W inkjet prints I've seen in a while.
The monochromatic inksets are still making the nicest prints here. And
for the new art gloss papers, correct profiles with the 3 part K and
the CMYK RIP are looking better than the ABW mode.
I imagine good QTR work could get you there as well.
I think nice work can be done with ABW, but some things have to fall
into place and some testing done to find the sweet spots on a given
paper, as Clayton suggests.
Tyler
www.custom-digital.com

Hello Bruce,

>>So two images, one with high contrast and the other with broad 
>>midtone areas, printed on the same paper at the same setting, can 
>>look a bit different on the warm/cool scale.

>I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw this. This is
>the reason that I don't like printing B&W with color inks. It's the 
>reason I don't like variable tone B&W inksets. I much prefer a fixed 
>tone inkset like the Cone PiezoTones. 

I know, it can be frustrating at times.  There's a trade off for
everything.  But once I figured out what was going on it has become
less of an issue for me. I know what to expect and what to do about
it.  I've considered the K7 inks and have seen some impressive
samples, but after nearly a year now I've gotten the K3 inks pretty
well figured out and can make them do what I want.  And to be honest,
I'm a bit worn out on experimenting with inks, after four years of
trying all sorts of things.   And I do enjoy being able to fine tune
the tone of an image.  Sort of like getting used to zoom lenses <g>.
But mainly I'm so happy to find something that works really well, I
just want to concentrate on photography for awhile.


>Isn't it nice that we have so many choices?

Indeed.  We all have different needs, goals and talents.  Thank
goodness for the many avenues.


BTW, been wanting to ask you...awhile back I received a pkg of
materials that you forwarded to me from our friend across the pond. 
In it was a roll of canvas that I've never opened.  Would you like me
to send it back to you or should I discard it?  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Tyler,

>Nope, one of the first tests I did here was an ABW test on EEM when
>the 9800 came in the door...But it changed hue down the ramp in an 
>>unattractive way...
>The monochromatic inksets are still making the nicest prints here. 
>I think nice work can be done with ABW, but some things have to fall
>into place and some testing done to find the sweet spots on a given
>paper, as Clayton suggests.

It's not just ABW.  As Bruce alluded, I've seen it in everything I've
tried, including UT7, UTx3, and UT-R2 and various mixtures thereof,
and in most things I've seen from others in exchanges.  It seems go go
with the territory of using color inks, and is one of the reasons I
stuck with BO for so long.  I'm sure you and Bruce are right on about
the Cone monochrome inkset.  The samples I saw were impressive.

What made me accept ABW as a viable solution was a combination of two
main things: 1) the driver allows easy compensation for the color, and
I found I could control it to my satisfaction, and 2) ABW is a "dotty"
system, in that it allows some bare paper to show through in the
highlights, and therefore has very nice luminance similar to BO's (not
quite as intense, but far better than the veiled look of so many other
systems with 100% coverage).  Besides those, it has excellent Dmax,
acceptable longevity ratings, and most important, if I do careful work
the prints are pleasing to my eye.  So it all added up for me and I'm
satisfied for now.  

I was also tired of searching.  I want to be a photographer, not a
perpetual experimenter.  I'm now making prints from last year's Death
Valley trip and have recently published a portfolio which I'm very
happy with - and thank goodness I'm not fussing with inks.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
>... I want to be a photographer, not a
> perpetual experimenter.

Exactly, it's good there are some very viable solutions now that allow us that.
Tyler

An example from jnack's list:

[snip]

Black and White Conversion Tutorial
by John Paul Caponigro
Are you looking for more detail in your digital B&W conversions? Or  
perhaps better contrast and tonal separation? Here�s an opportunity  
to learn how to get maximum flexibility out of your B&W conversions.  
Follow along step-by-step, as John Paul Caponigro shows you how the  
pros do it in this dynamic PDF tutorial.
PDF Download Link (2.5MB)

Black and White Conversion Action
This download is a Photoshop Action (.atn) that automates the  
sequence of steps outlined in the JP Caponigro tutorial above. It is  
not required to complete the tutorial. This Action is compatible with  
Adobe Photoshop CS and CS2. Action Download Link (10k)

[snip]

--

Sam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]